A problematic strategy

[profschade]

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When one looks at the Leica Store Germany (and probably elsewhere), one finds less and less lenses for the M Series. And the change is systematic. The smaller, ligher (and cheaper) lenses are more and more disappearing. Perhaps this move conincides with the recent start of a new CFO with Leica and the usage of controlling/cost-based methods to calculate the profitability of singular Leica lenses. And I can imagine that Leica earns more from selling a Noctilux than an Elmarit lens (the excellent and very small 28mm Elmarit just disappeard ...). Well, thinking in systems reveals that this is a problematic strategy, because the M system lives from being small. Consequently, small and light (and excellent) lenses are accompanying the small M body nicely. The more and more they disappear, the less attractive the entire M system becomes (being the core of the Leica brand -- dangerous). Any other opinions on that?

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[Hans-Dieter Gülicher]

I think the M System is a very exotic one in the meantime. Mostly old and more experienced boys like me should prefer this typ of camera. I like my handy M 10-R using the new APO-Summicron 35 mm (inspite of my S3). With this combo I take nearly 99 % of my pictures. My Summicrons 28 and 75 mm are staying in there boxes more and more. I assume a lot of other M users are handle their things in a similar way. Based on this prospective market situation it could be concievable that Leica should thin out the M lense line. May be or not that`s the question.

Regards Hans

Edited February 11, 2023 by Hans-Dieter Gülicher

[FrozenInTime]

1 hour ago, Al Brown said:

...
Another sad fact: Leica is ACTIVELY pushing the SL system promotion over M system everywhere and it shows.

As well as killing the TL/CL system, which I liked as much as the M system. Causally carrying around two SL bodies is unthinkable due to their weight and volume.

The 'need' for lenses that resolve 60 Mpixels corner-corner drives more complex lenses with expensive precision mechanical alignment on assembly. Knife edge tolerances seem to have been required to miniaturise the 35/2 APO; Voigtländer compromised on size to get their equal.

Keeping M around 24 Mpixels seems a better fit for purpose. For an OVF only camera, not having to refer to a histogram is important; targeting dynamic range on sensor would keep the system relevant.

Where is the M11-S ? it that should cost less than a M11  - maybe that is the problem, as few would feel the need to pay for the high resolution.

[Anbaric]

5 hours ago, profschade said:

 And I can imagine that Leica earns more from selling a Noctilux than an Elmarit lens (the excellent and very small 28mm Elmarit just disappeard ...).

Is the 28mm Elmarit really gone? On the Leica UK online store, there is both a 'Find a store' button and a 'Shop now' button, which reports 'Currently out of stock - Add your email address below to be notified when the item comes back into stock', implying it's not gone for good. For lenses we know are discontinued, like the Summarits, there is only the 'Find a store' button (for any shops that might still have stock). It would be a pity to lose the 28mm Elmarit, but I'm not sure there's a compelling need for anything slower or lighter than the 35mm and 50mm Summicrons (though cheaper would certainly be welcome!). One gap I do see is at 90mm, where the only current lenses are the APO-Summicron, Summilux and the Thambar. These are all large, heavy and (of course) expensive lenses, and the Thambar is a special purpose design. It's a shame there is no longer a 90mm Elmarit or Summarit, especially as rangefinders are arguably not ideally suited for precise focusing of lenses with this relatively long focal length at large apertures.

[Huss]

Nothing ruins the beautiful handling and view through the vf of an M more than attaching a big, fat lens to it.

It’s why I have no interest in the Noctilux, 28 Summilux etc.

[Kiwimac]

Here in NZ there’s about 10 second hand lenses at dealers, a couple on the local version of EBay (there’s no actual eBay here) and that’s it. 
 

Because stock sells more slowly here due to the tiny market the lenses we can’t get are the newer and/or more expensive ones usually. 
 

The 28 Elmarit is available from stock. 

[Kiwimac]

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2 hours ago, Anbaric said:

Is the 28mm Elmarit really gone? On the Leica UK online store, there is both a 'Find a store' button and a 'Shop now' button, which reports 'Currently out of stock - Add your email address below to be notified when the item comes back into stock', implying it's not gone for good. For lenses we know are discontinued, like the Summarits, there is only the 'Find a store' button (for any shops that might still have stock). It would be a pity to lose the 28mm Elmarit, but I'm not sure there's a compelling need for anything slower or lighter than the 35mm and 50mm Summicrons (though cheaper would certainly be welcome!). One gap I do see is at 90mm, where the only current lenses are the APO-Summicron, Summilux and the Thambar. These are all large, heavy and (of course) expensive lenses, and the Thambar is a special purpose design. It's a shame there is no longer a 90mm Elmarit or Summarit, especially as rangefinders are arguably not ideally suited for precise focusing of lenses with this relatively long focal length at large apertures.

The Thambar isn’t available new: at least I was told it was discontinued. 

[Kiwimac]

3 hours ago, FrozenInTime said:

As well as killing the TL/CL system, which I liked as much as the M system. Causally carrying around two SL bodies is unthinkable due to their weight and volume.

The 'need' for lenses that resolve 60 Mpixels corner-corner drives more complex lenses with expensive precision mechanical alignment on assembly. Knife edge tolerances seem to have been required to miniaturise the 35/2 APO; Voigtländer compromised on size to get their equal.

Keeping M around 24 Mpixels seems a better fit for purpose. For an OVF only camera, not having to refer to a histogram is important; targeting dynamic range on sensor would keep the system relevant.

Where is the M11-S ? it that should cost less than a M11  - maybe that is the problem, as few would feel the need to pay for the high resolution.

Given that the M11 has three Pixel binning modes down to 18MP, does using those lower resolution modes make the lower resolving lenses behave better or not?

[UliWer]

vor 26 Minuten schrieb Kiwimac:

does using those lower resolution modes make the lower resolving lenses behave better or not?

Yes, of course! An old uncoated 5cm Elmar will be best at 1 pixel for 24*36cm, an old 1:2.5/5cm Hektor will even ask for 1/2 pixel for the whole frame to achieve its optimum.

Please, please start to think about the logic of your question! 

[Anbaric]

10 minutes ago, Kiwimac said:

The Thambar isn’t available new: at least I was told it was discontinued. 

They are still listing it on the official site, but as 'Currently out of stock' like the 28mm Elmarit. Maybe with speciality lenses like the Thambar they gauge demand by how many people sign up fo the stock alert and perhaps run off another batch? Or was it always a limited edition?

[UliWer]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb profschade:

When one looks at the Leica Store Germany ...(the excellent and very small 28mm Elmarit just disappeard ...)

Did you look at the store's website?

In case you didn't: https://store.leica-camera.com/de/de/leica-elmarit-m-1-2-8/28mm-asph.-schwarz-eloxiert

You may even look at other store's websites: https://www.meister-camera.com/produkt/leica-elmarit-m-28-28mm-asph/

It is true that the line of Summarit lenses was deleted, also all 24mm lenses (the excellent and small 1:3.8 Elmar as well as the big and superfluous Summilux) and the 18mm Super-Elmar. 

If one asks for the reasons, one should listen to customers (or dealers): people didn't buy enough of those lenses. The Summarits were unpopular because they were not so expensive: the Leica brand means expensive or extremely expensive, otherwise it isn't a "real" Leica. 24mm is unpopular, as it is not really wide enough. 18mm is too wide for many and not wide enough for extremists. 

In stead of searching for strategies one might ask for customer's approach. I think Leica's strategy is quite simple: they want to sell their stuff (anybody who produces something for the market follows the same strategy). If customers won't buy enough of what is on offer, it is no surprise that offers won't hold. 

[dpitt]

It would be a pity if Leica would abandon the smaller, compact lenses. If you see the original Leica Barnacks, you understand how much a few mm can do in the look and feel of a camera. Despite the advance of technology the Leica camera grew from I -> II -> III -> IIIg -> M3 -> M5

Then the M6 was back to the size of the M2/M3/M4 

M6 -> M8/M9 - M240

Then back to smaller again to the M10 - M11

Collapsible lenses were a great invention. They are almost gone. Now if they kill the form factor of the Leica Elmarit 28 ASPH, an other step is taken.

38 minutes ago, UliWer said:

...

If one asks for the reasons, one should listen to customers (or dealers): people didn't buy enough of those lenses. The Summarits were unpopular because they were not so expensive: the Leica brand means expensive or extremely expensive, otherwise it isn't a "real" Leica.

...

I do not think you speak for most Leica users. There are many kinds. From relatively poor to very rich. The second hand market is important for the former. It is also feeding the bottom end of the new market. Second hand items lower the threshold to step into a Leica system. And the fact that the Leica products hold value better than most is important for all users I suppose.

For me Leica's essence is not expensiveness, it is optical quality combined with mechanical perfection and longevity (serviceability) to me. The Summarit 2.5 especially was lacking in that department. I think that was the main reason for its lesser popularity.

[lct]

It is hard to sell an Elmarit 28/2.8 for EUR 2,350 while Cosina sells its Ultron 28/2 for EUR 850. Leica needs to cut prices on its entry lenses or quit making them, which would be a pity.   

[UliWer]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb dpitt:

From relatively poor to very rich. The second hand market is important for the former. It is also feeding the bottom end of the new market. Second hand items lower the threshold to step into a Leica system.

Did you recently look at the prices on the second hand market for a 1. or 4. version 35mm Summicron, or a 35mm Summilux pre-asph? Or for a a M6? Or even a - former -"budget lens" like the 1:2.8/35mm Summaron? It is now generally more expensive or at least as expensive than a 35mm Summarit - which is 50 or more years younger. 

In which respect do the Summarits lack longevity and/or serviceabilty? Did you ever look at the rear element of a normal Summaron?  

[Kiwimac]

Here in NZ the 35 Lux ‘old fle “ version is about $9,000 new. They fetch about $6000 used. 
 

The 35 APO in comparison is almost $14000 and not in stock anywhere. 

[Huss]

2 hours ago, lct said:

It is hard to sell an Elmarit 28/2.8 for EUR 2,350 while Cosina sells its Ultron 28/2 for EUR 850. Leica needs to cut prices on its entry lenses or quit making them, which would be a pity.   

The Elmarit sells to people who want a Leica lens that matches their camera perfectly.

What I mean by that is not just optical performance, but also design and haptics.  I have the new Ultron 28 v2, and optically it is superb. But next to my Summicron Asph v2, frankly it is an ugly looking thing.  It really is as simple as that.  People pay for design as well as performance.

[lct]

54 minutes ago, Huss said:

The Elmarit sells to people who want a Leica lens that matches their camera perfectly.

What I mean by that is not just optical performance, but also design and haptics.  I have the new Ultron 28 v2, and optically it is superb. But next to my Summicron Asph v2, frankly it is an ugly looking thing.  It really is as simple as that.  People pay for design as well as performance.

I have those 3 lenses too. It's just that the Elmarit is too expensive compared to the Ultron now. I say now because it did sell well at its introduction in 2006 but the competition has become too strong since then. At least it is the way i understand why the lens is disappearing from some Leica stores in Germany and elsewhere as suggested by the OP. 

Edited February 12, 2023 by lct

[Huss]

21 minutes ago, lct said:

I have those 3 lenses too. It's just that the Elmarit is too expensive compared to the Ultron now. I say now because it did sell well at its introduction in 2006 but the competition has become too strong since then. At least it is the way i understand why the lens is disappearing from some Leica stores in Germany and elsewhere as suggested by the OP. 

I actually think it is the Cosina Zeiss lenses which are too expensive now compared the the Ultron.  I used to have quite a few of the ZM lenses, and the only one I have left is the Distagon 35 1.4.  I sold all the others because they all showed signs of developing the infamous wobble.

The ZM lenses are cursed with worse haptics and build than the Leica glass, and higher prices than the CV glass.  They also don’t look as nice.  All my current CV glass feel better mechanically than my old ZM stuff, so I’m not sure who now buys ZM glass given what is offered by CV.

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[lct]

6 minutes ago, Huss said:

I actually think it is the Cosina Zeiss lenses which are too expensive now compared the the Ultron.  I used to have quite a few of the ZM lenses, and the only one I have left is the Distagon 35 1.4 [...]

ZM lenses remain among my favorites irrespective of price but the issue raised by the OP is not about ZM lenses but Leica ones like Elmarit 28 that don't seem to sell anymore for discussed reasons.

[Gregm61]

It's easy enough to assemble a lighter, less expensive set of Leica M mount lenses if that's what you want.

A 28mm f2.8 Elmarit, 50mm f2 Summicron (version V) and 90mm f2.8 Elmarit-M threesome (I have all three, and all three 6 bit-coded) is a great little three lens set and all are easily found. The 90mm f2.8 Elmarit-M take a little more hunting if you want one already 6 bit coded for the ease of data being automatically included in image files and all three are just razor sharp.

One can make their M system as slim and efficient or as bulky and versatile as one wants.

Cheap/Cheaper? This system has never been that. It is what it is. If you can't afford what Leica offers, that's why the all-powerful created Cosina....