How to have a wider viewfinder in M10?

[SOHODE]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hi,

I have a problem with seeing the frame lines with my Summarit 35mm lens and with the 28mm it is impossible to see the frame lines. I found the "Match Technical E-Clypse .85x Viewfinder Magnifier 34mm" in one of the reviews and I saw Leica Store Miami has them in stock. I expected it could reduce the magnification so I could see the frame line easier. Once I placed the order with Leica Store Miami they emailed me that they won't offer selling this viewfinder all of a sudden because it doesn't meet their standards anymore!!! However they have it in stock, they removed it from the website when I ordered it and they refused selling them. I'm assuming they realized this is a rare/discontinued product and for some reason they want to keep them for future.

I can't find the 0.85x in any other store. I'm wondering if any of you ever found a solution for this problem? I didn't have the issue with Leica m6 as Leica redesigned the viewfinder for m10 in order to keep the camera thin. I would prefer a thicker camera which gives me a better viewfinder for 35 and 28mm lenses.  

PS. for 35mm I am able to see the frame lines if I literally push my eyeball to the viewfinder element. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by SOHODE

[adan]

The Leica M viewfinder is normally 0.73x life-size to begin with.

The Match Eclipse magnifies that normal view even more to enlarge it to .85x, so it will make the outer framelines even harder to see. Not what you want.

No-one makes a simple "minifying" eyepiece to get a wider view of the framelines, that I know of.

Leica did make an entire custom RF/VF (all the parts re-engineered, and sold as a unit, to produce a total magnification or 0.58x) for a while, but it has never been offered for digital cameras (of any thickness).

Leica also offered, in the M3 era, 35mms with goggles on the front that did "shrink the world" to fit 35mm worth of scenery into the 50mm framelines. Summilux, Summicron and Summarons from 1954-1964 (more or less). Such lenses had to have custom focus cams because the front-mounted "minifiers" changed the geometry/trigonometry of the normal RF system.

Downside - they are obviously heavier and bulkier than the normal lens-only lenses. Upside - they are sometimes a bit less expensive, due to the extra weight.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[SOHODE]

Thanks Adan, I was thinking the same that Match Technical .85x would give a closer frame in comparison to the original 0.73 viewfinder but I read in this Forum some people tried it for the same purpose and it gave a wider frame. maybe this info is not accurate. I also read that there was a Japanese company in the past that had a 0.6x viewfinder? 
 

[SOHODE]

Just to be clear this a .85x magnifier (not the viewfinder) and here is the forum’s page I was referring to:

 

[charlesphoto99]

What you are thinking of was the M6TTL and M7 that had a .58X viewfinder, which I at one time had both (why oh why did I ever sell those?). IMO it wasn't that much of an improvement honestly, which is probably why Leica has never gone there since. Your best bet is to get an optical viewfinder of your focal length of choice for the hot shoe and leant to bounce back and forth between the focus patch and that if you need. 

[dpitt]

You are using an M10. Did you try using the visoflex option? It even allows for corrected view to allow you to use it without glasses.

The other 'best' option is to use a goggled 35 mm version, I have both the Summaron and Summicron 35 v1 (8 elements). It iallows a good view even with my glasses.

I would not go for the optical solution, that would be make the M10 more like a Barnack camera.

[charlesphoto99]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

5 hours ago, dpitt said:

You are using an M10. Did you try using the visoflex option? It even allows for corrected view to allow you to use it without glasses.

The other 'best' option is to use a goggled 35 mm version, I have both the Summaron and Summicron 35 v1 (8 elements). It iallows a good view even with my glasses.

I would not go for the optical solution, that would be make the M10 more like a Barnack camera.

The visoflex is a joke if shooting anything that isn't nailed down - far too much blackout time. I can shoot wide lenses much quicker and more accurate with a hot shoe finder. 

[Kiwimac]

On 1/31/2023 at 2:41 PM, charlesphoto99 said:

The visoflex is a joke if shooting anything that isn't nailed down - far too much blackout time. I can shoot wide lenses much quicker and more accurate with a hot shoe finder. 

Is that also the case using the new M11 visoflex unit that was made retro fit to the M10?

[charlesphoto99]

7 hours ago, Kiwimac said:

Is that also the case using the new M11 visoflex unit that was made retro fit to the M10?

That I don't know. I suppose I should pop into the Leica dealer when I have a chance and try it out. I did try the new one briefly on the M11, and it was still too much like looking at a mini-TV for me and makes me slightly nauseous and my eye hurt (same with other mirrorless and sir's). Perhaps it's my near astigmatism that causes that, or it's just me and decades of using the OVF. I picked up a used 020 inexpensively just to have 'in case' and after one use its never left the drawer. 

[Kiwimac]

I have to agree that the 28 lines are very hard to see all at once without moving my head.   
I think I’d have to resort to Visoflex to use a lens that wide. Or buy a Q2 instead of the lens. 

Edited February 2, 2023 by Kiwimac

[SOHODE]

9 hours ago, Kiwimac said:

I have to agree that the 28 lines are very hard to see all at once without moving my head.   
I think I’d have to resort to Visoflex to use a lens that wide. Or buy a Q2 instead of the lens. 

I think that explains why the M10 finder shouldn't support 28mm Frame lines = Buy a Q2

I'm wondering what Garry Winogrand would think about M Leica these days.

[Kiwimac]

I think the frames are electronic so I’m not sure why you can’t simply select in the menu what you want to see. 
 

For example, when shooting 50mm I find the 75mm lines an irritation. I wish I could turn them off. 

[adan]

6 hours ago, Kiwimac said:

I think the frames are electronic so I’m not sure why you can’t simply select in the menu what you want to see. 

For example, when shooting 50mm I find the 75mm lines an irritation. I wish I could turn them off. 

This is not actually correct. The framelines in all Leica Ms since 1954 are still physical slits cut into black masks, and then backlit.

M8/M9/MM use natural backlighting from a third window on the front, as do the film cameras.

The M240/10/11 and variants use an internal LED to shine through the slits, but the slits themselves are still just holes in a solid substance, not "electronic."

(Intending no reflection on Kiwimac - but I do wonder where such "myths" get started.  )

[Kiwimac]

They start because they don’t work unless powered up unlike the old ones. 
 

I seem to recall I could make them red in the M240 as well. 

[Jeff S]

10 hours ago, Kiwimac said:

They start because they don’t work unless powered up unlike the old ones. 
 

I seem to recall I could make them red in the M240 as well. 

That’s because they are now electronically illuminated.  But as Andy describes, they otherwise operate mechanically, in the same way as this legendary post shows…

Jeff

[250swb]

Yes it's not as great as the optical viewfinder, but the Visoflex isn't that bad, or to put it another way, it's better than not seeing an accurate view at all.

[Anbaric]

From the description on the Leica Miami Store page, the discontinued E-Clypse .85x is indeed a 'demagnifier':

https://leicastoremiami.com/products/e-clypse-85x-viewfinder-magnifier-34mm?variant=345676233

'E-Clypse MAG 0.85x reduces the size of the viewfinder image by 15%, and has either a 34 mm or 42 mm diameter circular silicon rubber eyecup. The reduced 85% view provided by E-Clypse MAG 0.85x makes the wider frame lines easier to see (appreciated by spectacle wearers), and allows the camera to be held further from your eye (for those not wearing spectacles).'

So they mean it reduces the magnification of the viewfinder you have by a factor of 0.85x, not that it converts a standard 0.72 viewfinder to the equivalent of the 0.85 finder option that Leica used to offer. You presumably end up with something like a '0.62' finder using it with the M10, close to the old 0.58 finder option.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Anbaric

[SOHODE]

1 hour ago, Anbaric said:

From the description on the Leica Miami Store page, the discontinued E-Clypse .85x is indeed a 'demagnifier':

https://leicastoremiami.com/products/e-clypse-85x-viewfinder-magnifier-34mm?variant=345676233

'E-Clypse MAG 0.85x reduces the size of the viewfinder image by 15%, and has either a 34 mm or 42 mm diameter circular silicon rubber eyecup. The reduced 85% view provided by E-Clypse MAG 0.85x makes the wider frame lines easier to see (appreciated by spectacle wearers), and allows the camera to be held further from your eye (for those not wearing spectacles).'

So they mean it reduces the magnification of the viewfinder you have by a factor of 0.85x, not that it converts a standard 0.72 viewfinder to the equivalent of the 0.85 finder option that Leica used to offer. You presumably end up with something like a '0.62' finder using it with the M10, close to the old 0.58 finder option.

Correct, that was what I meant but then realized the thread adapter for M10 would add some distance between the E-Clypse and the M10 viewfinder that results to a cropped viewfinder. 

[PCPix]

On 2/2/2023 at 7:36 PM, Kiwimac said:

I think the frames are electronic so I’m not sure why you can’t simply select in the menu what you want to see. 
 

For example, when shooting 50mm I find the 75mm lines an irritation. I wish I could turn them off. 

I tend to agree with this - especially when using coded lenses you ‘should’ be able to get only the framelines you’re using. Unfortunately the mask and the preview lever only have three mechanical positions so the pairing of the framelines was a necessity which has stayed with us.

On another post on this subject somebody flagged up a ‘use’ for the extra framelines being for aligning horizons... Having adopted that attitude, I must say the extra framelines don’t really annoy me as much anymore!

Try it!

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[CptSlevin]

On 1/30/2023 at 6:49 AM, SOHODE said:

Hi,

I have a problem with seeing the frame lines with my Summarit 35mm lens and with the 28mm it is impossible to see the frame lines. I found the "Match Technical E-Clypse .85x Viewfinder Magnifier 34mm" in one of the reviews and I saw Leica Store Miami has them in stock. I expected it could reduce the magnification so I could see the frame line easier. Once I placed the order with Leica Store Miami they emailed me that they won't offer selling this viewfinder all of a sudden because it doesn't meet their standards anymore!!! However they have it in stock, they removed it from the website when I ordered it and they refused selling them. I'm assuming they realized this is a rare/discontinued product and for some reason they want to keep them for future.

I can't find the 0.85x in any other store. I'm wondering if any of you ever found a solution for this problem? I didn't have the issue with Leica m6 as Leica redesigned the viewfinder for m10 in order to keep the camera thin. I would prefer a thicker camera which gives me a better viewfinder for 35 and 28mm lenses.  

PS. for 35mm I am able to see the frame lines if I literally push my eyeball to the viewfinder element. 

Hello!
I had the Eclypse 0.85 and I started the thread about it.
Don't buy it, it's a waste of time and money.