Farrell Gallery Posted January 27, 2023 Share #1 Posted January 27, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello! I'm a Q2 user and love it. I also would like to have an M. I'm looking at a used M10 and I've heard it is designed for 24 (or is it 28mm?)-90 mm. My only pre-requisite is being able to use a 21 whether it's Leica, Zeiss, or Voigtlander. Is this because of the framing lines in the rangefinder? Would I be able to use that focal length without having to estimate my composition? Just trying to understand, and I appreciate any insight. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 27, 2023 Posted January 27, 2023 Hi Farrell Gallery, Take a look here Wide angle question for M10. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
M Street Photographer Posted January 27, 2023 Share #2 Posted January 27, 2023 There is no frame for 21mm. You have 2 options: Either you use the Visoflex (EVF) or a 21 mm optical viewfinder that is attached to the hot shoe. I chose the Visoflex. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Street Photographer Posted January 27, 2023 Share #3 Posted January 27, 2023 You can look here, my Thread : 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrell Gallery Posted January 27, 2023 Author Share #4 Posted January 27, 2023 43 minutes ago, M Street Photographer said: There is no frame for 21mm. You have 2 options: Either you use the Visoflex (EVF) or a 21 mm optical viewfinder that is attached to the hot shoe. I chose the Visoflex. Thanks!! That's a bit disappointing and cumbersome, but it's good to have options. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans-Dieter Gülicher Posted January 27, 2023 Share #5 Posted January 27, 2023 I`m using my M 10-R with Summicron 28 mm, 35 mm (new) or 75 mm and additional my old Vario-R 21-35 mm. In any case I take the Visoflex 2. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Brown Posted January 27, 2023 Share #6 Posted January 27, 2023 You can use any focal length there is with your M, providing you use either an external finder attached to your hot shoe (the M10 framelines only go to 28mm but you can use the extreme outer edges of the optical finder - providing you do not wear glasses - to frame for 24m/25mm) or live view on your camera. I regularly use 12mm/5.6 III with my M10-P Reporter and love it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrell Gallery Posted January 27, 2023 Author Share #7 Posted January 27, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) 58 minutes ago, Al Brown said: You can use any focal length there is with your M, providing you use either an external finder attached to your hot shoe (the M10 framelines only go to 28mm but you can use the extreme outer edges of the optical finder - providing you do not wear glasses - to frame for 24m/25mm) or live view on your camera. I regularly use 12mm/5.6 III with my M10-P Reporter and love it. I only wear 1.25 reading glasses but while shooting, I don't need glasses. It would be nice to bypass that extra step if possible. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick in CO Posted January 27, 2023 Share #8 Posted January 27, 2023 24mm and 25mm lenses can be easily visualized by looking beyond the 28mm framelines to the extreme edges of the M camera viewfinder. My issue with wide angle lenses, and true of all cameras - CRF, EVF, DSLR, is that one has to be careful about converging lines when shooting tall objects from a lower position. Lacking a rising front, post-processing works miracles. However, to correct extreme perspective one often loses a portion of the subject if framed tightly. I am experimenting with a 21mm lens on my M camera, without EVF or external finder, and using the total viewfinder to compose my pictures. That way I hope to be assured that I get what I want in the finished photo after post-processing to straighten everything out. Otherwise, I can use live view to visualize photos that I'm not worried about converging lines, or just crop afterwards. A 21mm external finder will not let you see the converging lines that you get in your photo. I find using live view much more amenable that an EVF, but thats just me. If using the 21mm for landscapes I use a tripod, where live view is easily feasible. If walking around street shooting or for travel pics, just approximate through the viewfinder. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Street Photographer Posted January 27, 2023 Share #9 Posted January 27, 2023 That's it @Elmarit I don't like what @Rick in CO said , because I don't want to take pictures of the display like with a mobile phone, shaky, and without Visoflex it remains a random result what I actually record. So I like to repeat myself: Use the Visoflex with the rules that Elmarit has mentioned. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick in CO Posted January 28, 2023 Share #10 Posted January 28, 2023 17 hours ago, M Street Photographer said: That's it @Elmarit I don't like what @Rick in CO said , because I don't want to take pictures of the display like with a mobile phone, shaky, and without Visoflex it remains a random result what I actually record. So I like to repeat myself: Use the Visoflex with the rules that Elmarit has mentioned. 14 hours ago, Elmarit said: Yea. @Farrell Gallery This is what it looks like from the M10. I’m shooting with the 28mm today. You can imagine trying to guess a 21mm. Just trying to provide some insight, a technique to be learned. To each their own! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/363644-wide-angle-question-for-m10/?do=findComment&comment=4662021'>More sharing options...
Rick in CO Posted January 28, 2023 Share #11 Posted January 28, 2023 Also, see the current discussion in M lenses "Shift lenses vs Leica M lenses + crop" Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Street Photographer Posted January 28, 2023 Share #12 Posted January 28, 2023 vor einer Stunde schrieb Rick in CO: Just trying to provide some insight, a technique to be learned. To each their own! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Why not if you like it. But I like to see what will be in the photo before shooting and not leave it to chance. That's why I wouldn't call it a learnable technique, but rather a random number generator, even if you personally have a good hit rate. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick in CO Posted January 28, 2023 Share #13 Posted January 28, 2023 58 minutes ago, Elmarit said: I guess if I back up far enough I can guess a 15mm. If you shoot a lot with 21mm a visoflex is the best option. If not then you can just keep one of these for when you do need 21mm and it’s done https://www.amazon.com/Voigtlander-21mm-Metal-Viewfinder-Black/dp/B003WEAQX2 In your example one can see it’s not really composed properly. If you had that little viewfinder in your bag it wouldn’t look like it’s cut in half. If the subject is that wall with the paintings on it then it’s not placed properly in the frame. If you wanted us to see that in the background then it’s cut in half. The intent of this example was to capture the essence of the church, not individual facets, which I also did record. I am not arguing against the use of the external EVF or optical finders, just suggesting an alternative if not available, or not desirable. Even using the external finders one has to pre-visualize how to account for converging lines and perspective in the finished (post-processed) photograph. Or use a tilt-shift lens on a tripod with live view or an external EVF as described in the mentioned post. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrell Gallery Posted January 28, 2023 Author Share #14 Posted January 28, 2023 12 minutes ago, Elmarit said: Fine. But I need to see what is inside the frame. I think most people need it too. The answer to the OP is to just keep a 21mm viewfinder in his bag (whatever he can afford), and show him what the frame lines look like. This was his original question. He has no experience looking through an M viewfinder so the way to help him is to show him What it looks like. I can appreciate both strategies, and once I am more accomplished with it, I may wing it for certain things....I just wish there wasn't a need for the viewfinder. But I appreciate all the great responses!! Lots of people talk about using a tripod—why if it's not long exposure? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Street Photographer Posted January 28, 2023 Share #15 Posted January 28, 2023 If you use LV of the display, avoid camera shake. I don't like it because I don't like cell phone photography through a display either. I have already mentioned both options in my post #2. I don't think much of random shots where I can't see exactly what's on the picture. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrell Gallery Posted January 28, 2023 Author Share #16 Posted January 28, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, M Street Photographer said: If you use LV of the display, avoid camera shake. I don't like it because I don't like cell phone photography through a display either. I have already mentioned both options in my post #2. I don't think much of random shots where I can't see exactly what's on the picture. Understandable. Plus it would be near impossible if outside glare. The rangefinder / viewfinder may be easier to see. Edited January 28, 2023 by Farrell Gallery 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted January 28, 2023 Share #17 Posted January 28, 2023 Yep, one has to embrace the limitations of the M vs fight against them. It’s why I consider it a very ‘fluid’ or loose shooting camera vs an slr. I often don’t look through the camera at all. esp with wides. And keep in mind you’ll need to learn the what the frame lines actually frame, close and far. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrell Gallery Posted January 28, 2023 Author Share #18 Posted January 28, 2023 3 hours ago, Elmarit said: I never use a tripod. But it’s so wide. You can keep your shutter speed relatively low (within reason) and not see shake. Or just work on having proper holding. Maybe the camera strap can help. Or keep your elbows tucked in and use your hand as a tripod. People use different ways to keep the camera steady. They been doing it for most of the 20th century before IBIS was a thing. The thing about rangefinders is that it’s about the limitations. If you’re already thinking negatively of limitations maybe the M is not the right system for you. Something to think about. When you look through the viewfinder those are the frame lines you see as I showed. 28/90, 35/135 and 50/75. The other fact is the M10 has a viewfinder with 0.72x magnification. The easiest lens for me to shoot is 50mm. The 75mm lines can easily be used for lining things up and making things straight. Which I do all the time. The M really loves a good nifty 50. Ultra wide you’ll need a viewfinder attachment. And too long would throw the entire camera out of balance. The M loves a nice small lens. Same, I can hand hold 1/15 sec usually. I will know when I spend time using it, I do know however that the SL isn't for me. I'm more old school and love analog controls. I think I'll enjoy the deliberate techniques which ultimately give me the most control. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrell Gallery Posted January 29, 2023 Author Share #19 Posted January 29, 2023 4 hours ago, Elmarit said: I never use a tripod. But it’s so wide. You can keep your shutter speed relatively low (within reason) and not see shake. Or just work on having proper holding. Maybe the camera strap can help. Or keep your elbows tucked in and use your hand as a tripod. People use different ways to keep the camera steady. They been doing it for most of the 20th century before IBIS was a thing. The thing about rangefinders is that it’s about the limitations. If you’re already thinking negatively of limitations maybe the M is not the right system for you. Something to think about. When you look through the viewfinder those are the frame lines you see as I showed. 28/90, 35/135 and 50/75. The other fact is the M10 has a viewfinder with 0.72x magnification. The easiest lens for me to shoot is 50mm. The 75mm lines can easily be used for lining things up and making things straight. Which I do all the time. The M really loves a good nifty 50. Ultra wide you’ll need a viewfinder attachment. And too long would throw the entire camera out of balance. The M loves a nice small lens. Also, I switched to Fuji in 2014, when mirrorless technology wasn't as capable, with autofocus especially; but I stuck with it because it made me more deliberate and I liked what it was doing for my work. I knew that it would be inconvenient at times, but learning the system can benefit our work when we don't expect it to cater to us, but we learn how it works. I suspect I can do the same with the M system, and if I gel with it, I can master it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrell Gallery Posted January 29, 2023 Author Share #20 Posted January 29, 2023 1 hour ago, Elmarit said: I knew as soon as I took the first photo that this was my thing That's one reason I prefer to try before committing. I love the Q2, and the complement could be magic. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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