28mm Summicron-SL vs Leica Q2

[scott kirkpatrick]

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A clarification (as it is to late to edit the posts above) -- the last two pictures are both taken with the SL APO 28 at f/4.  The first one with software corrections,  and the second, separate post, with corrections turned off.  

Also, on close inspection, it seems that I didn't focus the shot with the 28 at f/2.0 carefully enough.  Here's a redone version of the same scene (a day later) with the APO 28 at f/2.8:

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And to complete the series, Here's the same scene taken with my Sigma Contemporary series 24/3.5 (at f/4.0)

 

edge to edge, I don't see any limitations with any of the three wide angles.  There are some software corrections applied to the 24 by Capture One, but the effect is about 1/3 as much as for the 28.

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by scott kirkpatrick

[Sohail]

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[helged]

7 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

A clarification (as it is to late to edit the posts above) -- the last two pictures are both taken with the SL APO 28 at f/4.  The first one with software corrections,  and the second, separate post, with corrections turned off.  

Also, on close inspection, it seems that I didn't focus the shot with the 28 at f/2.0 carefully enough.  Here's a redone version of the same scene (a day later) with the APO 28 at f/2.8:

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And to complete the series, Here's the same scene taken with my Sigma Contemporary series 24/3.5 (at f/4.0)

 

edge to edge, I don't see any limitations with any of the three wide angles.  There are some software corrections applied to the 24 by Capture One, but the effect is about 1/3 as much as for the 28.

 

@scott kirkpatrick, any corrections to SL35-APO? (just curious...). 

[scott kirkpatrick]

3 hours ago, helged said:

@scott kirkpatrick, any corrections to SL35-APO? (just curious...). 

I didn't think so for the 35.  I check for this by using the correction tools in Capture One. And there is nothing to see, while the area at the edge that is left out when corrections are applied is quite visible with the 28.

If you're feeling really obsessive about this, open the .dng fie in a text editor and look for the WarpRectilinear parameters.  I'll paste them in.  Here's what you see  (\geekalert_ON)

for the APO 28:

Opcode: WarpRectilinear, minVersion = 1.3.0.0, flags = 0

  Optical center:

    h = 0.500000

    v = 0.500000

  Plane 0:

    Radial params:     1.000470, -0.110005, 0.056390, -0.006930

  Plane 1:

    Radial params:     0.999977, -0.109263, 0.056252, -0.006889

  Plane 2:

    Radial params:     0.999498, -0.108161, 0.056069, -0.006831

 

and for the APO 35:

  Plane 0:

    Radial params:     0.974034, -0.006388, 0.033468, -0.001477

  Plane 1:

    Radial params:     0.973694, -0.006075, 0.033443, -0.001430

  Plane 2:

    Radial params:     0.973619, -0.005464, 0.032666, -0.001073

 

So there are some corrections offered for the 35, but they are about 1/20 of the amount used in the 28.  The second term, the quadratic coefficient, is the important one.  Other Leica lenses, in particular those used with the Leica M, will have radial expansion coefficients of 1. 0. 0. 0.  The "three planes" are the R, G, and B components of the final image.

Edited February 16, 2023 by scott kirkpatrick

[helged]

28 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

I didn't think so for the 35.  I check for this by using the correction tools in Capture One. And there is nothing to see, while the area at the edge that is left out when corrections are applied is quite visible with the 28.

If you're feeling really obsessive about this, open the .dng fie in a text editor and look for the WarpRectilinear parameters.  I'll paste them in.  Here's what you see  (\geekalert_ON)

for the APO 28:

Opcode: WarpRectilinear, minVersion = 1.3.0.0, flags = 0

  Optical center:

    h = 0.500000

    v = 0.500000

  Plane 0:

    Radial params:     1.000470, -0.110005, 0.056390, -0.006930

  Plane 1:

    Radial params:     0.999977, -0.109263, 0.056252, -0.006889

  Plane 2:

    Radial params:     0.999498, -0.108161, 0.056069, -0.006831

 

and for the APO 35:

  Plane 0:

    Radial params:     0.974034, -0.006388, 0.033468, -0.001477

  Plane 1:

    Radial params:     0.973694, -0.006075, 0.033443, -0.001430

  Plane 2:

    Radial params:     0.973619, -0.005464, 0.032666, -0.001073

 

So there are some corrections offered for the 35, but they are about 1/20 of the amount used in the 28.  The second term, the quadratic coefficient, is the important one.  Other Leica lenses, in particular those used with the Leica M, will have radial expansion coefficients of 1. 0. 0. 0.  The "three planes" are the R, G, and B components of the final image.

Thanks! Having used the the SL35-APO for some time now - actually having it almost permanently fixed to SL2-S - it is my understanding that this is an optical masterpeice...

[scott kirkpatrick]

1 minute ago, helged said:

Thanks! Having used the the SL35-APO for some time now - actually having it almost permanently fixed to SL2-S - it is my understanding that this is an optical masterpeice...

Peter Karbe seems to think so, and I have confidence in his judgement, even if he is a bit obsessive about shooting at full aperture -- hate to let any of his lovely glass be wasted.

[trickness]

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I have a Q2M, and but use the SL2 with the 75 and 35 SL Crons much more often. Every time I open up a file shot with one of these lenses in Lightroom, I'm literally shocked at how good the images look. The Q2 is a great camera but in my experience the SL Crons are just on an entirely different level.

[Sohail]

1 hour ago, trickness said:

I have a Q2M, and but use the SL2 with the 75 and 35 SL Crons much more often. Every time I open up a file shot with one of these lenses in Lightroom, I'm literally shocked at how good the images look. The Q2 is a great camera but in my experience the SL Crons are just on an entirely different level.

Interesting. I've been using the Qs since the Q1 came out. It's been my main camera. But more recently I've been using the SL2 especially with SL primes (the 50/1.4, 50/2, 75 and 90). They're excellent no doubt but I always find myself going back to the Q2. The shooting experience for me is unmatchable. 

The new shorter SL primes might change all that.

[rtai]

I have the M10M, Q2M and SL2. I use the M and Q the same way: Manually set the aperture on the lens and shutter speed on the body just like every camera I have ever used. That said, I don’t get on very well with the SL2 and if I don’t use it for a while I don’t remember what custom settings I assigned for the wheels and buttons. 

[SrMi]

13 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

I didn't think so for the 35.  I check for this by using the correction tools in Capture One. And there is nothing to see, while the area at the edge that is left out when corrections are applied is quite visible with the 28.

If you're feeling really obsessive about this, open the .dng fie in a text editor and look for the WarpRectilinear parameters.  I'll paste them in.  Here's what you see  (\geekalert_ON)

for the APO 28:

Opcode: WarpRectilinear, minVersion = 1.3.0.0, flags = 0

  Optical center:

    h = 0.500000

    v = 0.500000

  Plane 0:

    Radial params:     1.000470, -0.110005, 0.056390, -0.006930

  Plane 1:

    Radial params:     0.999977, -0.109263, 0.056252, -0.006889

  Plane 2:

    Radial params:     0.999498, -0.108161, 0.056069, -0.006831

 

and for the APO 35:

  Plane 0:

    Radial params:     0.974034, -0.006388, 0.033468, -0.001477

  Plane 1:

    Radial params:     0.973694, -0.006075, 0.033443, -0.001430

  Plane 2:

    Radial params:     0.973619, -0.005464, 0.032666, -0.001073

 

So there are some corrections offered for the 35, but they are about 1/20 of the amount used in the 28.  The second term, the quadratic coefficient, is the important one.  Other Leica lenses, in particular those used with the Leica M, will have radial expansion coefficients of 1. 0. 0. 0.  The "three planes" are the R, G, and B components of the final image.

You can also use the command line tool dng_validate -v to display the stored profile values. The numbers are slightly different:

SL-APO 35mm

Opcode: WarpRectilinear, minVersion = 1.3.0.0, flags = 0
Planes: 3
  Optical center:
    h = 0.500000
    v = 0.500000
  Plane 0:
    Radial params:     1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000
    Tangential params: 0.000000, 0.000000
  Plane 1:
    Radial params:     1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000
    Tangential params: 0.000000, 0.000000
  Plane 2:
    Radial params:     1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000
    Tangential params: 0.000000, 0.000000
 

SL-APO 28mm

Opcode: WarpRectilinear, minVersion = 1.3.0.0, flags = 0
Planes: 3
  Optical center:
    h = 0.500000
    v = 0.500000
  Plane 0:
    Radial params:     1.000470, -0.110005, 0.056390, -0.006930
    Tangential params: 0.000000, 0.000000
  Plane 1:
    Radial params:     0.999977, -0.109263, 0.056252, -0.006889
    Tangential params: 0.000000, 0.000000
  Plane 2:
    Radial params:     0.999498, -0.108161, 0.056069, -0.006831
    Tangential params: 0.000000, 0.000000
 

[trickness]

2 hours ago, rtai said:

I have the M10M, Q2M and SL2. I use the M and Q the same way: Manually set the aperture on the lens and shutter speed on the body just like every camera I have ever used. That said, I don’t get on very well with the SL2 and if I don’t use it for a while I don’t remember what custom settings I assigned for the wheels and buttons. 

It’s exceedingly easy to set up the SL2 very much like an M. Yes if you’re using the native glass, you set the aperture on the body, not the lens - but if you’re using an M lens, you can set the dials on the SL body to serve the same functions as the M or Q, which doesn’t really require remembering much of anything. It’s extremely rare that I have to go into the menus on my SL2 for anything, although I use it 3 to 4 times a week. For me, customization equals convenience. I love being able to set up the SL2 in a manner that is very similar to the controls on an M body.

[rtai]

23 minutes ago, trickness said:

It’s exceedingly easy to set up the SL2 very much like an M. Yes if you’re using the native glass, you set the aperture on the body, not the lens - but if you’re using an M lens, you can set the dials on the SL body to serve the same functions as the M or Q, which doesn’t really require remembering much of anything. It’s extremely rare that I have to go into the menus on my SL2 for anything, although I use it 3 to 4 times a week. For me, customization equals convenience. I love being able to set up the SL2 in a manner that is very similar to the controls on an M body.

I bought the SL2 and the standard zoom for color but I mainly shoot b/w. I use it for general photography on full auto. I suppose that’s not the best way to learn how to use it. I would like to assign the wheels to aperture and shutter speed and set the iso to auto the way I use other cameras.

Edited February 17, 2023 by rtai

[Simone_DF]

10 hours ago, rtai said:

I have the M10M, Q2M and SL2. I use the M and Q the same way: Manually set the aperture on the lens and shutter speed on the body just like every camera I have ever used. That said, I don’t get on very well with the SL2 and if I don’t use it for a while I don’t remember what custom settings I assigned for the wheels and buttons. 

You can do exactly the same on the SL with the Sigma lenses. Most of the DG DN line has an aperture ring. 

[huwm]

1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

You can do exactly the same on the SL with the Sigma lenses. Most of the DG DN line has an aperture ring. 

It's one of the reasons I have quite a few, the others being build quality and performance/price ratio

[scott kirkpatrick]

19 hours ago, SrMi said:

You can also use the command line tool dng_validate -v to display the stored profile values. The numbers are slightly different:
 

Since that is exactly the tool I was using, I must have looked at one of my 24mm exposures when I found the second set of data.  I'll check.  In COne, it looked as if the Sigma 24 mm corrections were much weaker than the Leica 28, and the 35 APO corrections were simply not in evidence.  I moved the files back and didn't keep the output from which I excerpted those values of the radial distortion.

Edited February 17, 2023 by scott kirkpatrick

[SrMi]

3 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Since that is exactly the tool I was using, I must have looked at one of my 24mm exposures when I found the second set of data.  I'll check.  In COne, it looked as if the Sigma 24 mm corrections were much weaker than the Leica 28, and the 35 APO corrections were simply not in evidence.

I thought you were opening .dng with a text editor, and seeing slightly different numbers. The numbers are close enough, I guess.

[scott kirkpatrick]

27 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I thought you were opening .dng with a text editor, and seeing slightly different numbers. The numbers are close enough, I guess.

Nope, I just ran Adobe's DNG extractor and then copied the data over from the terminal window in which this runs on my Mac.  And I did grab my most recent file, which was taken with my Sigma 24.

Isn't it interesting that Leica choose to rely more strongly on software interpolation at 28 mm than Sigma does at 24 mm?  The M APO 35 was designed differently to achieve its smaller dimensions, and shows some moustache distortion.  There are no WarpRectilinear opcodes in the M DNG files, so it is also uncorrected.  This gives it the look of an older style lens.  

Edited February 18, 2023 by scott kirkpatrick

[helged]

9 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Nope, I just ran Adobe's DNG extractor and then copied the data over from the terminal window in which this runs on my Mac.  And I did grab my most recent file, which was taken with my Sigma 24.

Isn't it interesting that Leica choose to rely more strongly on software interpolation at 28 mm than Sigma does at 24 mm?  The M APO 35 was designed differently to achieve its smaller dimensions, and shows some moustache distortion.  There are no WarpRectilinear opcodes in the M DNG files, so it is also uncorrected.  This gives it the look of an older style lens.  

Will be interesting to see what SL28-APO will bring to the table (software corrections wise). But first the official announcement... 😉

[MediaFotografie]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb helged:

Will be interesting to see what SL28-APO will bring to the table (software corrections wise). But first the official announcement... 😉

oh, what do you mean?

APO-28 is on the street since more than 12 month; we‘re waiting for 21mm…

Anouncement September 2018!!!

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[helged]

56 minutes ago, MediaFotografie said:

oh, what do you mean?

APO-28 is on the street since more than 12 month; we‘re waiting for 21mm…

Anouncement September 2018!!!

Dyslectic... I meant SL21.