M10-R or M11 for long exposure

[SrMi]

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1 hour ago, Vonnie said:

Thanks Sr Mi, I don't think I would ever use a 60 minute exposure and after reading some of the comments on here I'm starting to re-evaluate the idea of using an m for long exposure. It would mean taking a my 5d mkiv along on my travels too, or part ex it for an slr2 if I get the Leica bug. Now I only have to make my mind up regarding the M10-R vs M11.  There are so many pros and cons to both....

I do use longer exposure longer than 30 sec, a common metering limit with other cameras. AFAIK, only Hasselblads and M11 can meter longer than 30 sec. 
What you need to test is whether you get good results without requiring LENR. I did a multi-minute test with M11 and the result was excellent without LENR.

[Vonnie]

4 hours ago, SrMi said:

I do use longer exposure longer than 30 sec, a common metering limit with other cameras. AFAIK, only Hasselblads and M11 can meter longer than 30 sec. 
What you need to test is whether you get good results without requiring LENR. I did a multi-minute test with M11 and the result was excellent without LENR.

I have a Fuji Gfx 50sII which allows up to 60 minutes so I'll do a test over the weekend. I've read quite a few complaints regarding the M11 freezing etc...That's one of the reasons I'm not sure if I should pick up an M10-R and part ex when they've fine tuned the M11. Have you had any problems with yours? I'm also quite shocked that you need to use a scrunchy on an 8.800€ camera....they could at least produce a Leica branded one as an accessory 😉

[SrMi]

23 minutes ago, Vonnie said:

I have a Fuji Gfx 50sII which allows up to 60 minutes so I'll do a test over the weekend. I've read quite a few complaints regarding the M11 freezing etc...That's one of the reasons I'm not sure if I should pick up an M10-R and part ex when they've fine tuned the M11. Have you had any problems with yours? I'm also quite shocked that you need to use a scrunchy on an 8.800€ camera....they could at least produce a Leica branded one as an accessory 😉

GFX A-mode works only to 30 seconds, not 60 minutes like M11.
I do not have any freezing with my two M11s.
What scrunchy? Are you referring to @hmzimelka's  ND filter? I do not buy Leica polarizers, either.

Edited January 26 by SrMi

[Vonnie]

37 minutes ago, SrMi said:

GFX A-mode works only to 30 seconds, not 60 minutes like M11.
I do not have any freezing with my two M11s.
What scrunchy? Are you referring to @hmzimelka's  ND filter? I do not buy Leica polarizers, either.

Sorry hadn't realised you were referring to Aperture mode. With long exposure I usually shoot in M mode. Scrunchies are the hairbands people use to stop light leaks during long exposures.

Glad to hear your M11s don't suffer with any issues such as freezing

 

[darylgo]

Within limits the M10-R or M11 should do quite well for long exposures.  I shoot Canon also for astrophotography from the days when Leica limited exposure to 8 seconds on M240.   My limited use of the M10-R for astro would make my Canon unnecessary except battery and I wouldn’t hesitate to leave a Canon out all night unattended, the Leica I wouldn’t.  
 

Leica M11-P could solve the dilemma, the P version of Leica M9, M240 and M10 brought significant changes, however no mention has been made of its release.   

[ianforber]

15 hours ago, Vonnie said:

Sorry hadn't realised you were referring to Aperture mode. With long exposure I usually shoot in M mode. Scrunchies are the hairbands people use to stop light leaks during long exposures.

Glad to hear your M11s don't suffer with any issues such as freezing

 

I too have had no freezing with my M11 and use scrunchies after reading advice here. My first few IR shots had a light leak on the lower right of the image which I had thought was an IR hotspot in the lens - a scrunchie solved the problem. I’ve only ever used the M11 and have no experience of the M10-R but I like that the M11 battery life allows for plenty of long exposures without fear of running out of juice. No idea if that’s an issue for the M10 batteries. 

[Vonnie]

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On 1/24/2023 at 11:28 AM, Ouroboros said:

Thanks!

I could have bought an M11, it had just been released at the time I bought my M10-R and I had thought carefully about which one to buy before shelling out £7.4K.

There are operational aspects I dislike about the M11, just as there are some irritations for me with the M10-R, but overall the looks (black paint), handling, shutter sound and weight of the M10-R are much closer to my MP which I bought in 2006 and which has travelled extensively with me.

Side by side, my MP and M10-R are virtually identical.

I don't consider the 60mp vs 40mp to be important, both cameras have more than enough resolution for any practical purpose that the M system was originally designed for.  In the end it came down which was the closest to the original M ethos in form and function and the M10-R is much closer to that than the M11.   

I see the M11 as an interim camera, a bridge between the more 'traditional' M10 and whatever a future M12 might be.

If long exposure photography was a primary use consideration for me, I would not choose a Leica M10-R or M11 because neither are the best option for this genre of photography, I'd use another camera system. 

Long exposures apart and to answer your question, yes I would buy the M10-R again over an M11 but my reasons for that might be completely irrelevant to your decision.  

However, I think for your use M11 might be the better choice because long exposures are an important consideration for you.  With M11, you can cancel lenr and the battery life is better-suited to long exposures, although M11's battery is not great by any standard. 

Thanks for your input. It's been very helpful. I'm leaning more towards an M10-R now as I've always had some reservations regarding the M11, I think the M10-R will be easier to sell when the M12 or M11(p/m/r) comes out. 

[Vonnie]

On 1/27/2023 at 10:19 AM, darylgo said:

Within limits the M10-R or M11 should do quite well for long exposures.  I shoot Canon also for astrophotography from the days when Leica limited exposure to 8 seconds on M240.   My limited use of the M10-R for astro would make my Canon unnecessary except battery and I wouldn’t hesitate to leave a Canon out all night unattended, the Leica I wouldn’t.  
 

Leica M11-P could solve the dilemma, the P version of Leica M9, M240 and M10 brought significant changes, however no mention has been made of its release.   

Thanks Daryl, I think I might get the M10-R and maybe part ex it for a future M11P/R/12 

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[Vonnie]

21 hours ago, ianforber said:

I too have had no freezing with my M11 and use scrunchies after reading advice here. My first few IR shots had a light leak on the lower right of the image which I had thought was an IR hotspot in the lens - a scrunchie solved the problem. I’ve only ever used the M11 and have no experience of the M10-R but I like that the M11 battery life allows for plenty of long exposures without fear of running out of juice. No idea if that’s an issue for the M10 batteries. 

The battery life in the M11 is a huge plus for me as is the internal storage but I have some reservations regarding the freezes and hardware problems I've read about. 

[Ouroboros]

1 hour ago, Vonnie said:

Thanks for your input. It's been very helpful. I'm leaning more towards an M10-R now as I've always had some reservations regarding the M11, I think the M10-R will be easier to sell when the M12 or M11(p/m/r) comes out. 

I think a future M12 (or whatever its designation) will be a considerable technological step ahead of M11. 

I think the M10-R's potential advantage here is that it will be seen by many as the last digital high resolution M that remained as close to that original design brief as a digital M could, which might be detrimental to M11's future end of production desirability in it's current form.  

Time will tell.

 

[Vonnie]

2 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

I think a future M12 (or whatever its designation) will be a considerable technological step ahead of M11. 

I think the M10-R's potential advantage here is that it will be seen by many as the last digital high resolution M that remained as close to that original design brief as a digital M could, which might be detrimental to M11's future end of production desirability in it's current form.  

Time will tell.

 

I think so too. I've been torn between the two since November, any used  M10-R has been sold quite quickly while the used m11s are still for sale a a couple of months later despite a price reduction

[Photoworks]

It is quite amusing to me all the recommendation of M10-R over the M11.

the arguments of been the last real M are only esthetic, because there is no real reason to stay with a film bottom plate painted in black. ( is you don't turn the camera around you can't even tell the difference .

 

in any case if this is the opinion of a few people here, if this really reflect  Leica M future then that is real grim. Since the M10-R is already discontinued in black and sold out in black paint.
Is this just a comment from M users that never used the M11? I can't answer that! and if you care more about the look of the camera over functionality, well that is where we differ.

I had m10-p and move to M10-R and have added M11, It has been a year since the M11 is going to shoot with me, the M10-R does stay home and does not complain.

Happy shooting... and drink more coffee !

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[Patrick Morgan]

Hello! As other mention, it's great that we can turn off the Long Exposure Noise Reduction. Also as an aside, I have been shooting using the auto time exposure function at iso 64, the needed f-stop for the scene, and plus 3 exposure compensation. With a 10stop ND filter at sunset or just after sunset, I have been successful with up to 1 hour long exposures without using a shutter release. The camera's light meter is accurate even with an ND filter on, which I find impressive. This approach takes practice (since during blue hour, light loses approximately 1 stop of light every 5 minutes - depending on the time the time of year and cloud cover) and for more accurate long exposures, use a shutter release, timer, and light meter. For hour long images, I see very few hot pixels and the files are much cleaner than those from my Sony A7r3. 

In terms of the light leak, I've had zero issues with my 50mm Summicron V4

The image below is f13, iso64, 900s, with a 10 stop B+W ND filter

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[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Patrick Morgan said:

Hello! As other mention, it's great that we can turn off the Long Exposure Noise Reduction. Also as an aside, I have been shooting using the auto time exposure function at iso 64, the needed f-stop for the scene, and plus 3 exposure compensation. With a 10stop ND filter at sunset or just after sunset, I have been successful with up to 1 hour long exposures without using a shutter release. The camera's light meter is accurate even with an ND filter on, which I find impressive. This approach takes practice (since during blue hour, light loses approximately 1 stop of light every 5 minutes - depending on the time the time of year and cloud cover) and for more accurate long exposures, use a shutter release, timer, and light meter. For hour long images, I see very few hot pixels and the files are much cleaner than those from my Sony A7r3. 

In terms of the light leak, I've had zero issues with my 50mm Summicron V4

The image below is f13, iso64, 900s, with a 10 stop B+W ND filter

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Thanks for the report. Even if your image gets underexposed by one stop because of changing light, at ISO 64, you can easily lift the image brightness in post without a noticeable increase in noise.

 

[Olaf_ZG]

I won’t buy the m11, but do hope the SL3 will have similar capabilities… fingers crossed.

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[Photoworks]

34 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

I won’t buy the m11, but do hope the SL3 will have similar capabilities… fingers crossed.

you are not afraid of missing out? you are in the M11 section after all!

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[Olaf_ZG]

29 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

you are not afraid of missing out? you are in the M11 section after all!

No, I am not. I made myself a quite nice setup which works for me, except for the part of long exposure in which to me, the m, would not fit in. 

BUT, the technology of the m11 seems to be great, and therefore I follow this section.

To me, the m10m is the ultimate m. But then, my name seems to be nobody.

[Hausen17]

I am pretty much 100% LE shooter and I traded my Hassy 907x + 4 lenses for an M11 kit. Once LENR was able to be switched off I was back with Leica. LENR is a PITA so it is M11 for me. When I take my Q2 out when I pack super light I don’t have the patience to shoot higher than 30s with the LENR.

 

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Edited February 15 by Hausen17

[Patrick Morgan]

For landscape images, I'm also a majority long exposure photographer and these are typically more than 5 minutes and up to an hour in length. Having taken long exposures on film (Hasselblad 501c and Leica M3), cropped censors (Fuji XT1, Xpro1, Xpro2), and full frame mirrorless (Sony a7 and a7riii), I can say that the M11 has by far the least noise even at 60 megapixels. I was expecting to want to use the 36 megapixel binning option to reduce noise but do find the need. I also find the focusing pretty easy without the visoflex (my Summicron 50mm f2 v4 at infinity seems to truly represent infinity which is my only lens I can say this for).It's been a pleasure to work with. With such positive performance, I'm really keen on getting the Leica Summilux-M 28mm f/1.4 ASPH for astro with a visoflex for astro and aurora photography. My only gripe is that I wish I could manually program the shutter time using an internal intervolometer (e.g. I can do this with the Fuji for up to 60 minutes). Here is another example of an hour long exposure where I duct taped my camera to my dashboard, stopped in front of a few iconic signs in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and then drove home (accounting for the central light trails that are the cars on my roughly 50 minute drive home). Again, this is iso 64, f13, an hour exposure, and a B+W 10 stop filter.

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Edited February 15 by Patrick Morgan