New M11 tips please

[DrM]

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Dear all,

Finally, I made the big leap and got rid of the SL2/lenses, M240, and 28/2. So, last Saturday I got my M11 and new SEM21 (kept my 35/1.4FLE, 50/1.4ASPH), and I feel relieved. Freed from lens/camera picking stress, weight, AF frustrations, shoulder pain, bulky bag, and room for a sandwich and water bottle.

I worked for years with the M, love it. With the M11, there are some new features, sensor characteristics, workflows, monochrome conversions, do’s/don’t to learn, and I would interested in your views 1 year after the introduction of the camera.

Obviously, this is subject to style and purpose. I mainly shoot street, (urban) landscapes, family/friends portraits. Purchasing the M11 I was in serious doubt to go for the M10M as 90% of my stuff is BW, but the color/post filter/upcoming M11M made me decide in favor of the M11. So, I would be very interested in your learnings wrt M11 BW workflow.

Best regards,

 

Marc

Edited January 16, 2023 by DrM

[Ne314satel]

24 minutes ago, DrM said:

So, I would be very interested in your learnings wrt M11 BW workflow.

 

Everything is as usual since the time of m9. We need a color - we shoot in color, we need b/w - we shoot in color)) And then C1 or PS

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[Kwesi]

I think it’s a very smart move to wait and see what the M11-M brings. Meanwhile how about simulating a quasi Monochrom workflow by shooting both 60mb DNG and b/w jpeg with a flat in camera profile? The goal for the jpeg being to capture as much in camera data as possible for later post processing.

[SrMi]

1 minute ago, Kwesi said:

I think it’s a very smart move to wait and see what the M11-M brings. Meanwhile how about simulating a quasi Monochrom workflow by shooting both 60mb DNG and b/w jpeg with a flat in camera profile? The goal for the jpeg being to capture as much in camera data as possible for later post processing.

I do not understand the suggestion for a flat camera profile for JPEGs. The idea of JPEGs is that they are processed as little as possible and the flat profile does not help the DNGs. The flat profile will make the image in the EVF/LCD bland. Some try to use it to maximize exposure.

[Kwesi]

2 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I do not understand the suggestion for a flat camera profile for JPEGs. The idea of JPEGs is that they are processed as little as possible and the flat profile does not help the DNGs. The flat profile will make the image in the EVF/LCD bland. Some try to use it to maximize exposure.

I agree that in general a jpeg is designed for quick distribution and as such relies on in camera processing. But in this case I am suggesting that by having the camera do as little processing as possible to the b/w jpeg, one has more data to work with in post without the distraction of color

[SrMi]

32 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

I agree that in general a jpeg is designed for quick distribution and as such relies on in camera processing. But in this case I am suggesting that by having the camera do as little processing as possible to the b/w jpeg, one has more data to work with in post without the distraction of color

If you create JPEGs with flat profiles, then you have to post process them more unless you want a flat looking final output. It is not a good idea to have to post process JPEGs, as they fall apart easily. It is not about the speed of distribution but about the quality of final output.

[Photoworks]

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There are film presets for b&w conversion that give you a nice starting point. 

I like the Trigger-X 400 Mastinlabs preset 

and the Agfa Scala 200 from RNI FILM 5

Both for Capture One and Lightroom

 

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[Kwesi]

These are quite nice. Especially DNG 1

[Stef63]

My settings that make working with the M11 different from previous M models :

• Auto ISO
• Max ISO 8000
• ISO 1/4f (so 1/200s lowest for a 50 mm.  And yes - Leica please - a 1/3f option would be great)

For B&W conversions, I use a tool called M10M 😀

[lct]

Besides its larger files, the M11 makes no difference re B&W for me. I use the same good old Silver Efex Pro software as usual. Not the best idea to work on compressed files BTW. Would be like working on MP3 instead of AIF files in audio. I only work on TIF files (362MB here) that i compress as JPG's in PP (42MB). M11 + CV 75/1.5 @ f/1.5. FWIW.

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by lct

[Tailwagger]

38 minutes ago, Stef63 said:

My settings that make working with the M11 different from previous M models :

• Auto ISO
• Max ISO 8000
• ISO 1/4f (so 1/200s lowest for a 50 mm.  And yes - Leica please - a 1/3f option would be great)

For B&W conversions, I use a tool called M10M 😀

These are fine starting points, but I think its important to note that these settings can vary widely depending on taste and technique. I limit things to ISO 6400, but much depends on the scene and how much noise I'm willing to tolerate.  As for minimum shutter speeds, what works for some, clearly fails for others. I regularly shoot at speeds 1/2 of focal length ie. 1/25" at 50mm will no ill effect. 

[SrMi]

4 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

These are fine starting points, but I think its important to note that these settings can vary widely depending on taste and technique. I limit things to ISO 6400, but much depends on the scene and how much noise I'm willing to tolerate.  As for minimum shutter speeds, what works for some, clearly fails for others. I regularly shoot at speeds 1/2 of focal length ie. 1/25" at 50mm will no ill effect. 

Why use a lower ISO limit than max possible? What is the benefit? If you hit the limit, your shutter speed will start falling below the lowest shutter speed that you specified.

[Tailwagger]

22 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Why use a lower ISO limit than max possible? What is the benefit? If you hit the limit, your shutter speed will start falling below the lowest shutter speed that you specified.

Because I find noise levels over ISO 6400 unacceptable except in special circumstance. There are other strategies other than blindly accepting higher iso. Assuming you actually are paying attention, of course.

[SrMi]

47 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Because I find noise levels over ISO 6400 unacceptable except in special circumstance. There are other strategies other than blindly accepting higher iso. Assuming you actually are paying attention, of course.

As you probably know, the noise is not caused by high ISO but by low exposure. However, the metered ISO number is a good indication when exposure becomes too low and, thus, noise too high.

I like to have the camera use its automatic only within a specific range. Instead of being surprised by the camera as it lowers the shutter speed to an unacceptable level, I monitor the ISO value. If it moves too high, there are two options: open the aperture or stabilize the camera while lowering the shutter speed. Allowing the camera to set a shutter speed that is too low is not an option, as the images will become blurry. It is better to have noisier images than blurred ones.

And now I realize why I want to set a lower Auto-ISO limit with digital Ms: the rangefinder does not show ISO, only the shutter speed. So once the displayed shutter speed becomes too low (instead of ISO too high), I know the exposure has become too noisy.

[geotrupede]

Very similar situation here, had to wrestle a bit to get to a point now where I am very happy with the output. It is not a mono camera and never will be so there are some limitations with conversion but you get 90% there. As for the colour I found a good preset (good to me). If interested here they are attached.

The 'matlab' one is a little odd, I have tried to process the files from raw with matlab to force my own mix of channels and output a tiff 16bit to be used as a mono file, linear curve. But in the end it seems not worth the messy effort. having said that, the look is also interesting if applied to a normal file so I have shared it.

Some examples of these conversion here:

https://www.japancamerahunter.com/2023/01/get-featured-giulio-antonutto/

and here:

https://www.papa-antonutto.com/nothingtobreathbutstreetsstreetsstreets

Regarding the gear, the live view is very useful for extreme / close up / compositions. BUT it is very hard to focus if you use the screen on the back. The additional viewfinder is not as good as the SL2 (or SL) and may be disappointing in low light and in general if one is addicted to those. but it is useful if needed. hard with long lenses (I guess you need to dial in the profile but in my case seems to be very shaky ).

The way I use the M11 is with low resolution, no need to 60MP for me, so I save some space in memory and storage. Battery is very good, last long time but again I seldom use wifi and other new features such as live view or preview. 

very light camera, I have the black version and despite the initial shock ("is this a toy?") I came to appreciate the weight a lot. I would not go for a black paint if that means adding weight, or a silver one.

I have mapped top button for zoomed in focusing, the dial click to size of files, the fn to shutter mode (single, multiple, etc)

the M in the iso dial is set to 25k

i use the 1600 and 3200 mostly but when needed I can push to 25k in a single click.

other things, the electronic shutter is terrible and no sue due to rolling shutter effect, world is made of jelly 😉 

i mostly use the mechanical one, and mostly single click which is very fast anyway

no file preview and all led off for more classic camera look 

live view off all the time unless really necessary

I have taped the red logo with gaffer tape, looks like a fuji (what is the point?!) so nobody asks too many questions

for the stripe, I use the original MM1's which was a nice leather one.

as a flash, I have picked the godox senior, not perfect but a fun thing to use (my fav was the old 24D but it is not reliable anymore and batteries more and more expensive)

Good luck and I am sure you will enjoy the camera, it is a very good product, despite all the negative comments and some of the bugs that can be found in operations. To me the quality of files is remarkable.

G>

 

 

M11 BW day-sunny.costyle M11 BW.costyle M11 colour.costyle M11_matlab.costyle

[DenverSteve]

Welcome to the M11. First thing - read the manual. Too many don't. Once you've ingested the manual, shoot.  Set your JPG settings to they please... YOU.  Not us. I shoot all JPGs in B&W and capture everything in DNG also.  That way I have everything I want/need.  For my workflor JPGs are set exactly where I want them OOC.  As stated above, there's no reason to "process" JPGs.  You've been a M shooter so you're already over half-way there. 

[Tailwagger]

3 hours ago, SrMi said:

... the noise is not caused by high ISO but by low exposure. However, the metered ISO number is a good indication when exposure becomes too low and, thus, noise too high.

As the ratio of photons to base noise level drops, signal to noise increases.  Given the sensor is ISO invariant (or close enough), ISO is merely amplification.  Boost the incoming signal and you boost the native noise of the sensor right along with it.  Fine up to a point, but after that point I get far better results dealing with things in post, particularly as I can be selective about what I decide to bring up and by how much rather than accepting increased noise levels across the entire frame. I typically shoot auto iso, but when I'm in obvious low light situations... and I'm thinking about it... I select a specific ISO value, lowest manageable, and take my chances on the back end. 

[SrMi]

41 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

As the ratio of photons to base noise level drops, signal to noise increases.  Given the sensor is ISO invariant (or close enough), ISO is merely amplification.  Boost the incoming signal and you boost the native noise of the sensor right along with it.  Fine up to a point, but after that point I get far better results dealing with things in post, particularly as I can be selective about what I decide to bring up and by how much rather than accepting increased noise levels across the entire frame. I typically shoot auto iso, but when I'm in obvious low light situations... and I'm thinking about it... I select a specific ISO value, lowest manageable, and take my chances on the back end. 

What do you do when the camera hits the ISO limit of 6400 and starts lowering the minimum Auto-ISO shutter speed?

Not related, but this graph tells you how much M11's sensor is ISO invariant (the graph must be flat for the range to be ISO invariant).

 

[Tailwagger]

31 minutes ago, SrMi said:

 

What do you do when the camera hits the ISO limit of 6400 and starts lowering the minimum Auto-ISO shutter speed?

What do you do when you hit your maximums, whatever they may be?  The suggestion certainly shouldn't be to set the auto limit to max and go merrily along blindly accepting whatever your 3 stops of DR will net you at ISO 50K.  Auto-ISO is no panacea, its a convenience. It blindly prefers the introduction of noise over the possibility of motion blur. At some point the photographer has to assess conditions and think for themself as to what best needs to be done to achieve the imagined result.  There are any number of strategies from accepting crushed shadows to shallower DoF to bracing yourself against a convenient light pole to simply giving up and going home. 

By 6400 we're down to 6 stops of DR.  Unless I'm imagining a higher contrast, noisy, likely monochrome treatment, that's my personal limit. YMMV.  Beyond that, as I said previously, as long as I'm paying attention I am to able to reliably manage sharp hand held shots at half focal length speed. So other than awareness, the initial AI speed drop is no issue AFAIC and by extension my willingness to shoot at speeds down to focal length/2 grants shooting parameters at 6400 that equal others at 50K who've chosen to set shutter speed to 1/4F.  In point of fact, I often waffle between a max of 3200 and 6400 as it rare that 3200 isn't sufficient.  If for some reason I do require higher shutter speeds in low light, I will always shoot manual ISO and deal with things in post. 

In the end regardless of ones comfort level, we all run out of latitude at some point.  You either accept excessive noise, the need for a tripod or the fact that the shot can't be made. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[CDodkin]

Mastin have an excellent Ilford pack - now called their Artisan B&W pack - PanF, HP5, and Delta 3200 - which include optional virtual green, yellow or red filters as part of the film conversion.

Their Adventure Everyday Pack (Kodak) has a good Tri-X 400.

And their Lifestyle Everyday pack (Fujifilm) has a truly excellent Acros 100.

 

I also really like Really Nice Images RNI All Films 4 - Pro

RNI All Films 4 - Pro includes excellent sims for 

Agfa Scala 200 / Alt / Faded / Faded + / HC / HC + / HC + Faded 
Fomapan 100 / Alt / Alt II 
Ilford Delta 100 / Alt / Faded / Faded + / HC 
Ilford Delta 3200 / Alt / Faded / HC 
Ilford Delta 400 / Alt / Faded / Faded + / Faded ++ / HC 
Ilford Delta 800 / Faded / HC 
Ilford FP4 / Faded / Faded + 
Ilford HP5 / Faded / Faded + 
Ilford Pan F Plus / Faded / HC 
Kodak T-Max 100 / Faded / HC 
Kodak T-Max 3200 / Faded / HC 
Kodak Tri-x 100 / Faded / HC
Kodak Tri-x 400 / Faded / HC

I prefer these to the later All Films 5 sims - they seem to be more realistic to my eye, and you get a wider selection of film types in the All Films 4 pack.

Sample Mastin Acros M11 shot below:

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