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M11, happy launch anniversary.


SrMi

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14 minutes ago, Overgaard said:

Problem with childrens birthdays. You cannot invite only some of the classmates. 

I noticed you did not bake a cake ?

Yes, no cake because I was one day late. Next year, I'll make a cake fro the anniversary. Promised! :)

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3 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

As for the old style metering off of the shutter blades in earlier digital M cameras, I never found exposure metering to be a problem.  If it wasn't broken in the first place, why was the switch seen as necessary?  Was it just to keep up with Sony and silence critics of the M10's supposedly "obsolete" metering method?

Just because it's interesting conversation (in my opinion) about the new way of metering:

From my understanding the metering using the sensor means it can see small highlights in the image and where the shadows fall and picks the exposure accordingly. The older styles of metering take all the light as an average (like getting all the shadows and highlights, mixing them together with a paintbrush first, then showing that to the camera), the camera seeing this single shade figures out exposure adjustment to 18% grey. This gets you the average but isn't a very 'intelligent' way of metering. The new way meters better but does have the annoying side-effect of the shutter doing weird things, I prefer the standard shutter but like the new metering, I wish I could have both somehow.

The new way of metering also allows the preserve highlight metering mode as the sensor can see where the highlights are and how bright and just expose for them, dropping the shadows as it doesn't care if they're out of the sensors dynamic range.

That's my understanding, I might not be 100% accurate on it.

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1 hour ago, Overgaard said:

Problem with childrens birthdays. You cannot invite only some of the classmates. 

I noticed you did not bake a cake ?

At least he wrote no presents please!:). This is a California kids birthday after all.  No nuts either!  (Did he say no siblings too? We have small yards here…:)

Edited by setuporg
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@Herr Barnack This was all discussed in other M11 threads, threads in which you participated, so why put all this here? :) In any case, this deserves a response for those who stumble across the thread via Google. 

8 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

I am still at a loss to understand why some M11 owners have freeze-ups and others have no problems at all; can this be resolved with another firmware update?  It seems that the first one helped some users but others still have freeze-ups.

No one knows. The M11 either needs another firmware update or there is an issue with the hardware that only happens to every X-number of units. We don't know how many units are affected, it could be a handful, it could be half of them.

8 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

Another thing thing I have noticed is that early on, there were many complaints about the open/close/open/close/open working of the M11's new shutter design, a result of the off the sensor metering, similar to the metering in Sony cameras. 

This would be less of an issue (and it's only an issue to some of us) if Leica would remove the delay to re-open the shutter to resume metering at the end of an exposure in single shot mode. In continuous modes, the last "click" in a single exposure happens super-fast and the overall shutter sound is not as drawn out. I did get the issue sent to the engineers to investigate, though.

8 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

As for the old style metering off of the shutter blades in earlier digital M cameras, I never found exposure metering to be a problem.  If it wasn't broken in the first place, why was the switch seen as necessary?  Was it just to keep up with Sony and silence critics of the M10's supposedly "obsolete" metering method?

The old-style non-live-view metering was not "broken", but it was "accuracy-challenged" in difficult lighting. The metering accuracy when using the rangefinder on the M11 extremely accurate by comparison. The issue is not that they added off-sensor metering, it's that they removed the old metering method, which they didn't have to. Maybe they will add this back on the M11-P and add the option in firmware to choose either the old metering or metering off the sensor.

8 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

I would like to have an M11 but the apparent crap shoot nature of whether or not your particular M11 will have freeze-ups makes me hesitate.  As long as freeze-ups continue to be an issue, I'll hold off or go with an M10R, provided they are still available. 

I returned my M11 after the first one had an out-of-adjustment rangefinder and the second after it started freezing. I'll be back when they fix the freezing, either by firmware or if hardware, then via a new supplier for a bad component (main board perhaps). If via firmware, then the M11 will be perfect out of the box for all with regard to freezing. If it's hardware, then there will either need to be a case-by-case replacement of the hardware or entire unit. That also means the real fix will be called the M11-P.

8 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

IMHO it would be a monumental mistake for Leica to retire the M10R before the M11 freeze-ups are 100% resolved.

Meh, they don't give a whit and neither should you. Why would you want a new M10-R for the same price as the M11? Get a Leica-certified or otherwise lightly-used M10-R if you need a digital M – but how many of us need a digital M? Very few. I'll be using the SL2-S in the meantime.

Edited by jaapv
Replaced s by w .
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55 minutes ago, hdmesa said:
7 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

I would like to have an M11 but the apparent crap shoot nature of whether or not your particular M11 will have freeze-ups makes me hesitate.  As long as freeze-ups continue to be an issue, I'll hold off or go with an M10R, provided they are still available. 

I returned my M11 after the first one had an out-of-adjustment rangefinder and the second after it started freezing. I'll be back when they fix the freezing, either by firmware or if hardware, then via a new supplier for a bad component (main board perhaps). If via firmware, then the M11 will be perfect out of the box for all with regard to freezing. If it's hardware, then there will either need to be a case-by-case replacement of the hardware or entire unit. That also means the real fix will be called the M11-P.

How you going to know when it is time? they already said that Leica will not have any shortage of camera parts do to pandemic. they are fully stocked for few years.

When testing betas I had the feeling that some that we tested where more stable, I don't know what the status is now. Most freezing issue are with live you. but they are so minor that are not even worth mentioning. In the last few months it only accused one for me.
If you think about using the M10-R instead , are you really going to use it in Live View? it so painfully slow. I would use the M11 any day.

PS. please don't bring back the old light-meeter , the hole technique of swinging to the light, hold and recompose, underexpose... No thank you. Plus it is the electronic shutter that will give you shutter speed greater than 4000, and it was not possible on the old system.
 

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2 hours ago, setuporg said:

At least he wrote no presents please!:). This is a California kids birthday after all.  No nuts either!  (Did he say no siblings too? We have small yards here…:)

M11-P and M11M were invited but did not RSVP 😁.

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8 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

As for the old style metering off of the shutter blades in earlier digital M cameras, I never found exposure metering to be a problem.  If it wasn't broken in the first place, why was the switch seen as necessary?  Was it just to keep up with Sony and silence critics of the M10's supposedly "obsolete" metering method?

 

Maybe Leica listened to @adan’s complaints about flare induced inside the pre-M11 camera chambers, in part due to the flat floor required where the metering sensor used to reside.  Removing that sensor from the M11 created more chamber space to correct for flare.  See Andy’s comments #15 and #20…

 

Jeff

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3 hours ago, hdmesa said:

@Herr Barnack This was all discussed in other M11 threads, threads in which you participated, so why put all this here? :) In any case, this deserves a response for those who stumble across the thread via Google. 

No one knows. The M11 either needs another firmware update or there is an issue with the hardware that only happens to every X-number of units. We don't know how many units are affected, it could be a handful, it could be half of them.

This would be less of an issue (and it's only an issue to some of us) if Leica would remove the delay to re-open the shutter to resume metering at the end of an exposure in single shot mode. In continuous modes, the last "click" in a single exposure happens super-fast and the overall shutter sound is not as drawn out. I did get the issue sent to the engineers to investigate, though.

The old-style non-live-view metering was not "broken", but it was "accuracy-challenged" in difficult lighting. The metering accuracy when using the rangefinder on the M11 extremely accurate by comparison. The issue is not that they added off-sensor metering, it's that they removed the old metering method, which they didn't have to. Maybe they will add this back on the M11-P and add the option in firmware to choose either the old metering or metering off the sensor.

I returned my M11 after the first one had an out-of-adjustment rangefinder and the second after it started freezing. I'll be back when they fix the freezing, either by firmware or if hardware, then via a new supplier for a bad component (main board perhaps). If via firmware, then the M11 will be perfect out of the box for all with regard to freezing. If it's hardware, then there will either need to be a case-by-case replacement of the hardware or entire unit. That also means the real fix will be called the M11-P.

Meh, they don't give a whit and neither should you. Why would you want a new M10-R for the same price as the M11? Get a Leica-certified or otherwise lightly-used M10-R if you need a digital M – but how many of us need a digital M? Very few. I'll be using the SL2-S in the meantime.

I bought a new M10-R last week. 
 

Leica discounted it significantly from new (they were actually more expensive than the M11 in NZ) which was enough to persuade me to buy that and wait for the M11-P Black Paint 😇

 

 There’s no such thing as Leica Certified in New Zealand, so that wasn’t an option. Used cameras get 3 months warranty from the dealer, that’s it. 

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3 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Maybe Leica listened to @adan’s complaints about flare induced inside the pre-M11 camera chambers, in part due to the flat floor required where the metering sensor used to reside.  Removing that sensor from the M11 created more chamber space to correct for flare.  See Andy’s comments #15 and #20…

 

Jeff

The diagram I nice but I don’t think M lenses work that way. The light rays focused out of the rear element don’t fall on the floor or ceiling of the chamber.

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3 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Maybe Leica listened to @adan’s complaints about flare induced inside the pre-M11 camera chambers, in part due to the flat floor required where the metering sensor used to reside.  Removing that sensor from the M11 created more chamber space to correct for flare.  See Andy’s comments #15 and #20…

 

Jeff

I doubt Leica listened to just li'l old me - I presume they must have gotten similar feedback about internal flare from many other M users, with closer connections to the company, to make a change in that regard specifically.

More likely it was mostly about multi-pattern metering (which has, after all, been around at least 40 years in other brands - see Nikon FA (1983))- and only paying for one light-sensitive device that can do the job of two.

If Leica did make that change (with all its repercussions) just because of me - I do feel a little guilty that I'm not on board the M11 train yet.

28 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

The diagram I nice but I don’t think M lenses work that way. The light rays focused out of the rear element don’t fall on the floor or ceiling of the chamber.

May I introduce the concept of the "image circle?" Which is exactly how M lenses work. Unless they are cropped by a baffle or rectangular lens hood, they project a circular image, and the (large) part which does not fall on the imaging area (film/sensor) has to go somewhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_circle

NB: Leica lenses shorter than 50mm usually have rectangular lens hood for just this reason. But the M lenses 50mm or longer generally do not have rectangular hoods, and spill a lot of light into the camera outside the image plane.

NB2: Film Leicas have a sheet-metal baffle inside the lens mount to block most of the spill - digital Leica's don't have that baffle.

See black sheet-metal baffle around lens mount of the M6 here - and ask yourself why Leica goes to the expense of including that baffle with its squared-circle cutout

https://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/Leica/Leica-M6/

NB3 - I have noticed that lenses with notable vignetting (i.e. small image circles that crop off a lot of that excess image circle quickly) flare less on my M10 that those that do not. Examples - CV 75mm Nokton: a lot of vignetting, almost never flares from outside the image frame; Leica 90mm Elmarit-M: not much vignetting, very prone to image-circle flare with the M10.

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4 minutes ago, adan said:

I doubt Leica listened to just li'l old me - I presume they must have gotten similar feedback about internal flare from many other M users, with closer connections to the company, to make a change in that regard specifically.

 

I wasn’t being literal.

Jeff

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Nice to see this thread. I've been a little gun shy.

I've had an m10r for a year or two now and also own a Leitz Mono. I've never shot an m11, because basically, I've been more than happy with my 10R. I use a 1/2 case that doesn't utilize the bottom plate and has a door for the battery and card. So I guess, the electronic shutter is about all I'm missing (That I think I would like) I mean, I have every darn size ND filter already so, at least I'm covered there. What else am I missing?

There's some folks that say if you already have the 10R, you might not like the upgrade. There's also some folks that upgraded, then downgraded. Do you think these folks are missing out now because now that the bugs are mostly fixed the m11 is the better camera?

I see a lot more members have the "Leitz" Mono on this forum than have seen on other forums. I don't feel so special anymore...lol

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1 hour ago, thatkatmat said:

Nice to see this thread. I've been a little gun shy.

I've had an m10r for a year or two now and also own a Leitz Mono. I've never shot an m11, because basically, I've been more than happy with my 10R. I use a 1/2 case that doesn't utilize the bottom plate and has a door for the battery and card. So I guess, the electronic shutter is about all I'm missing (That I think I would like) I mean, I have every darn size ND filter already so, at least I'm covered there. What else am I missing?

There's some folks that say if you already have the 10R, you might not like the upgrade. There's also some folks that upgraded, then downgraded. Do you think these folks are missing out now because now that the bugs are mostly fixed the m11 is the better camera?

I see a lot more members have the "Leitz" Mono on this forum than have seen on other forums. I don't feel so special anymore...lol

This is my list of M11 advantages:

- Much improved live view and EVF

- Improved PDR, at the level of best Nikon and Sony cameras

- Triple-resolution modes allow you to shoot at lower resolution without sacrificing image quality.

- Multi-field metering can make your life easier if you have issues with center-weighted metering.

- Lower base ISO may allow keeping the aperture one stop wider.

- The electronic shutter (faster max shutter speed) also allows shooting wide open in bright light (no need for ND filters)

- According to CIPA measurements, battery life is much better (210 vs. 700 shots).

- Long exposure (up to 60 minutes) works amazingly well, even without LENR (tested up to 10 minutes).

- Lighter camera body if going with black.

- In-camera body charging is a good backup.

- Internal memory can be used as a backup card when necessary.

- Compatibility with old lenses has been improved.

- Better flare resistance as there is more room in the chamber.

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USB-C tether in capture one + live view

USB-C tether in FOTOS

BT for GPS

WIFI 5Ghz 1/2 time to connect

USB charging

3 button in the same position SL2 and q2

quick battery remove the freeze, no bottom plate

1st grip with Arca mount

Collaps lenses compatible

button on top for...

 

 

 

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On 1/14/2023 at 11:44 AM, SrMi said:

Yes, I am one day late. M11 launched on January 13th. 
The launch of M11 was an important milestone for digital Ms. 
The launch started the freezing complaints and the anti-M11 trolling. But, for me, the camera worked beautifully. The past year I used my M11 more than any other digital or film M (my first Leica was M8), and I look forward to photographing with it more.

I agree with you. I love my M11. 

I switched to Leica with first one in Nov. 2019, an M10. I upgraded to the M10-R and now to the M11. The battery of the M11 last all day long and I love the image resolution that allows me to "zoom" in post-processing. It's a delightful camera and I'm very happy.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography.

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Been lucky enough to fix freeze issues on the M11 so it is my best M body since the M6J within its own limits of a camera i cannot shoot handheld at slow shutter speeds. Its main fortes, to me, are its BSI sensor free of color shifts with any lens, its internal memory, its EVF as effective as that of my digital CL and a similar UI as the latter's. First modern M since the fifties, it lacks IBIS to become a milestone in Leica history but it is a pleasure to use with old and new M lenses anyway.

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I have been a Canon and Nikon shooter for a long time. I have always thought about Leica, but just could not pull the trigger. I finally decide to jump in and went back and forth between the M11 and M10-R. In the end I knew I wanted a black M and brass for my first Leica so, went with an M10-R. I look forward to seeing what the most likely future M11-P will be. I will most likely always keep my M10-R, but who am I kidding, I think I have only sold one of my cameras in the last 50 years. So I guess I am saying that I am not against the M11 in anyway but, in some ways, I felt like the M10-R was the mechanical digital (if that is possible) Leica so I wanted it. Not sure if this make any sense. 

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If this thread is about the 1 year experience with the M11. Why do we have to read about why people did not buy one and why they chose an M10R , or how great and happy they are with their M10R.  Lol. 
 I think I am going to start posting on the M10 pages on how happy I am with my M11. , post pictures of my M11 , and keep telling everyone on why I traded my M10R FOR MY M11. 

Edited by Harout62
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