Before & After - Show us your edits

[Adam Bonn]

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1 hour ago, Adam Bonn said:

If all of this seems a massive PITA (it is!) then just use a proper WB card to set a custom WB in camera before shooting under shitty yellowy-orange light 😀

 

8 minutes ago, jaapv said:

The pragmatic solution to this problem (and the yellows under some types of artificial light is part of the IR sensitivity of all M digital cameras) is to use a greycard white balance which will turn out slightly cool, which is easily corrected. 

Indeed.

[evikne]

47 minutes ago, jaapv said:

The pragmatic solution to this problem (and the yellows under some types of artificial light is part of the IR sensitivity of all M digital cameras) is to use a greycard white balance which will turn out slightly cool, which is easily corrected. 

I don't think it's quite that simple. I have tons of examples of pictures taken in artificial light where I've used either a WhiBal card or an ExpoDisc (for the example above with the boy I used WhiBal). The Leica M10 profile still shows this result. I can adjust the colors to almost normal by using the HSL/Color sliders, but not with the WB alone, because that will affect other colors as well (white will turn blue etc). 

[jaapv]

Try an IR cut (hot) filter. This is indeed a nasty, especially with LED light. Another manifestation is the extreme predominance of yellow around the sun in sunsets 

[Adam Bonn]

2 hours ago, evikne said:

I don't think it's quite that simple. I have tons of examples of pictures taken in artificial light where I've used either a WhiBal card or an ExpoDisc (for the example above with the boy I used WhiBal). The Leica M10 profile still shows this result. I can adjust the colors to almost normal by using the HSL/Color sliders, but not with the WB alone, because that will affect other colors as well (white will turn blue etc). 

Returning to the super exciting cat shot again (try and contain yourselves)

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I can fairly reasonably balance the bog standard M10 profile and modified M10 forward matrix profile using the calibration sliders (I could do better obviously, but it's just not worth it for what it is, a test shot and a forum post demonstration )

 

These are the only edits, I haven't touched the WB slider or HSL tool

(not because I don't use these tools!!! But because I'm trying to demonstrate chromatic adaptation)

The calibration tool I find works best when you think like a camera !!!!

So if you look at the 3 RGB hue sliders you see they're actually giving you a choice between moving hues towards blue or towards yellow, or hot and cold

(yup exactly like the kelvin -temp- slider)

 

[Besprosvet]

22 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

Here is a crappy picture of my cat, taken with an M10 under crappy indoor light.

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This picture has not been edited in any single way and was taken with AWB

The one on the left is with the M10 Embedded profile

The one on the right is exactly the same profile, except I've used maths to calculate and add into the profile a linear Bradford derived forward matrix for each illuminant.

I've heard it said that the Leica M10 profile has too much yellow in it under artificial light now this appears to be true but what's actually happening is that both pictures have the same amount of yellow, the forward matrix simply tells abobe where to place the yellow

The difference varies on the picture and the light, and the camera (the M10R embedded profile is better in artificial light IMO)

Now we haven't made great colours here but what we've done is get the RAW data to the 'ballpark'

So to be short and sweet, what I did here was this:

Hey adobe rather than guess how to get to D50 from StdA (aka from white balance 2800 to 5000) in order to display the colours - instead please follow this map that I wrote for you

The maths for this can be found in the adobe dng spec here (see chapter MAPPING CAMERA COLOR SPACE TO CIE XYZ SPACE, starts on page 85, bit that you need is on p87) and the linear Bradford chromatic adaptation maths can be found here 

(you'll also need a way to convert dcp to and from a text format, dcamprof or dcptool are free, and a way to extract the Leica profile from the DNG, Adobe's DNG Profile editor is your friend there, also free. As well you'll need some maths ability...)

To quote adobe (who invented DNG, and dcp profiles) on the subject of forward matrices 

"The use of the forward matrix tags is recommended" is basically tech speak for you REALLY should be doing this when using our RAW and profiling solution

And that's exactly what's happening here* - the ginger cat, on the orange cushion, in front of the yellow cushion under mixed indoor lighting** is causing an extreme case which the forward matrix-less Leica profile is giving the adobe image pipeline trouble to try and adapt the XYZ values.

Why Leica doesn't include forward matrices is a bit of a mystery to me...

If all of this seems a massive PITA (it is!) then just use a proper WB card to set a custom WB in camera before shooting under shitty yellowy-orange light 😀

Oh and this tool in LR/ACR

Gives you the ability to override the native adobe XYZ_D50 adaptation (that's why it's in the tab marked 'Calibration')

Hopefully that's de-mystified what's going on under the hood a little...

*yes as a profile geek I deliberately shot this to test the Leica profile on the day I got my M10, I know it's a torture test for any camera

**mrs Adam loves orangey colours, hence the cushions, the cat, the f**king bright orange wall lamp that I have to remember to turn off when I'm snapping some family gathering 😅

 

I wonder how all this situation works with Capture One. I use both Lightroom (for fast/big chunk processing) and Capture One for single shots I want to print or for anything serious (more buggy and slugghish in the interface), but since I own the M 246 I just downloaded a few RAW files from a review online of the M 240. And the ICC profile of Capture One to me seems generally more 3d, not oversaturated (unlike adobe) and just more pleasant than the ones I get from adobe.

Have any of you tried Capture one on color Leica RAWs?

[Adam Bonn]

48 minutes ago, Besprosvet said:

I wonder how all this situation works with Capture One. I use both Lightroom (for fast/big chunk processing) and Capture One for single shots I want to print or for anything serious (more buggy and slugghish in the interface), but since I own the M 246 I just downloaded a few RAW files from a review online of the M 240. And the ICC profile of Capture One to me seems generally more 3d, not oversaturated (unlike adobe) and just more pleasant than the ones I get from adobe.

Have any of you tried Capture one on color Leica RAWs?

Well this example I posted is Leica’s profile not adobe’s

I have both C1 and LR/PS

Run enough images through each and it’s win some/lose some for each application 

I personally prefer working in LR.

C1’s .icm (aka icc) profiles work very differently to adobe’s dcp files and I don’t enjoy working with icc profiling (no real standard to adhere too)

As a sweeping general statement that’ll be easy to pick holes in… I find that C1 colours are closer to Leica’s profiles than Adobe’s profiles

Modern adobe profiles are very under saturated IMO. (Gamut compression)

One time I would say that C1’s tools were light years’ ahead of adobe’s but lately they’ve really closed the gap. (Just the HSL tool left to modernise IMO)