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Last of the traditional Elmars?


105012

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I was doing some browsing and came across an advert for an Elmar 5cm f/3.5 with this text "Manufactured in 1955. The last model of A36 Elmar 50mm.”

https://flashbackcamera.jp/brand/leica/lens/021037-leica-elmar-50mm-f35-l-red-scale/

Since these were definitely produced in 1956 I was curious if anyone knows when the production switched from the traditional design to the one with the revised mechanicals? What truly is the range of the last Elmars with the original mechanical design?

Thanks for indulging my curiosity!

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I don´t think, that we can trust these data for 100%.  Leica is a commercial company with owners, who want to see profit. See Trump´s extra import tax for German products. After that, products were marked with "Made in Portugal". Repair specialists change things without documentation, that is another problem.

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vor 6 Stunden schrieb 105012:

Since these were definitely produced in 1956 I was curious if anyone knows when the production switched from the traditional design to the one with the revised mechanicals? What truly is the range of the last Elmars with the original mechanical design?

There was no „switch“ from one version to the other. When the M3 came to the market, the 1:3.5/5cm with M-mount was introduced. The earliest number for this new version with M-mount I can find is 1.140.016. There is no screw-mount production of this lens with new housing.

At the same time the production of the „red-scale“ Elmar with 39mm-mount still went on, as the cameras were still produced and regularly sold together with the lenses. The latest number I find is 1.458.000.

As has been said, there is great uncertainty about these numbers, often M-mount and screw-mount are mixed up in listings of numbers, and certain batches or at least certain numbers in batches that are assigned to the 5cm Elmar belong to completely  different lenses. 

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I have 1140561,  M bayonet.

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Edited by Pyrogallol
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3 hours ago, UliWer said:

There was no „switch“ from one version to the other. When the M3 came to the market, the 1:3.5/5cm with M-mount was introduced. The earliest number for this new version with M-mount I can find is 1.140.016. There is no screw-mount production of this lens with new housing.

At the same time the production of the „red-scale“ Elmar with 39mm-mount still went on, as the cameras were still produced and regularly sold together with the lenses. The latest number I find is 1.458.000.

As has been said, there is great uncertainty about these numbers, often M-mount and screw-mount are mixed up in listings of numbers, and certain batches or at least certain numbers in batches that are assigned to the 5cm Elmar belong to completely  different lenses. 

Thank you UliWer. My phrasing ‘switched’ was not the best I guess, I meant basically the last of the LTM original mechanical Elmars and its serial. The 1,458 million number is what I was after, thanks again. It is listed as M-mount in the wiki page.

Edited by 105012
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vor 48 Minuten schrieb 105012:

It is listed as M-mount in the wiki page.

Yes, and this may be right. Helmut Thiele in his book "Großes Fabrikationsbuch Leica-Objektive" lists the batch from 1.455.001 - 1.458.000 as the last one with screwmount. The last batch for the 1:3,5/5cm with M-mount is listed with 1.333..001- 1.337.000, so the production of the newer M-mount version might have ended earlier than the "old" screw mount. 

Both were replaced by the 1:2.8/5cm (later 50mm) Elmar which - according to Thiele - started with 1.402.001 and was produced both in screw-mount and M-mount. 

All these listings may become void when certain examples were found which belong to a different version than indicated in the lists. 

My own 1:3,5/5cm 1185483 in M-mount and 1:2,8/5cm 1.451.765 in screw-mount fit into the listing by Thiele. So does Pyrogallol's 1:3,5/5cm shown in #8.

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Well, I recently learned that Max Berek's patent for the Anastigmat dated from 1921.

So last year there was some occasion - not for Leitz but for the Leica Camera AG. The proposal in this Forum to reissue the Anastigmat as an interchangable lens is more than ten years old.

Though I fear the Leica community worldwide is more concerned about "steel rims", other versions of magical thinking and the last issue of the recent week from Voigtländer et al.

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1 hour ago, UliWer said:

 

Though I fear the Leica community worldwide is more concerned about "steel rims", other versions of magical thinking and the last issue of the recent week from Voigtländer et al...

... That's the problem... 🤒... a reissued Anastigmat could not be priced as a Thambar or a Noctilux 1,2.. items for which they can plan a high priced, batch which, even if of small numbers, can assure a good return...  the last time they made a traditional Elmar (the 2,8) at a "normal" (for Leica standard... 🙄) price, it was not a success.. I have played a little with Wiki figures : the Elmar M, during its life, was made in 17400 items... and in the same timeframe they made around 36500 Summicron and 18000 Summilux, lenses that give them (expecially the Lux) a greater margin : business is business... "go where money is"... 

 

Edited by luigi bertolotti
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Well, it is funny to see that the Elmar-M, when it was first introduced in 1994, had the same price as the 50mm Summicron, the chrome version of the Elmar was even more expensive. Then the Summicron had a rather steep price increase, though this doesn't seem to have put off customers, whilst the Elmar-M became only moderately more expensive. At the end it was the only M-lens which was less than 1000,-€ (800€  in 2006) while the Summicron was at 1300,-€.

Another reason why a reissue of any collapsible lens (be it an Elmar or an Anastigmat) seems to be improbable is the fact, that Leica is not fond of them being used with digital bodies. Any manual for a digital M tells you that you cannot collapse them, even if this is not true, but they obviously fear to get in trouble if one user should cause any damage by fixing a collapsed lens to a digital body. 

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A borrowed Elmar 2.8 (on a borrowed M2) was the first Leica lens I used. After getting an M4 I planned to get a new Elmar, but the price had just increased from $78 to $81, so I waited a bit and got a new v3 Summicron. After retiring I finally got a nice 2.8 Elmar, and really like using it. Also got the newer Elmar-M 2.8, and while the images of the new one are great, I find the original more pleasant to use. The Leitz-era lenses are mechanical masterpieces.

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On 12/23/2022 at 10:14 PM, Al Brown said:

Maybe Marco Cavina's article (use translate) can be of any help.
http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/50mm_Leica_a_telemetro/00_pag.htm

I have Cavina's book which shows the same optical formula for the f3.5 from 1951-1961, but we all know that the mechanical formula changed in the mid 1950s. He does not record an exact date for that change. Neither does van Hasbroeck who went through the various Elmar variations from the beginning - Jerzy and I found more variations, but we concentrated on the early years. Lager mentions a 33 year reign of the Elmar from 1926-1959. Laney showed an f3.5 Elmar in M bayonet mount as existing from 1954 (ceased 1961) which would have been in the new mechanical formula. This ran in parallel with the f3.5 LTM item which faded away by 1959. Does anyone have an LTM f3.5 lens in the new mechanical formula? There was an f2.8 version in the new mechanical formula from 1957-1962 and I have one of those in my collection.  

I'm just trying to summarise here what the main authorities have said. I haven't had time to through Thiele yet, but we can assume that, as ever with Leitz, things did not follow a definite chronological pattern and that overlaps exist. The original f3.5 design faded out in the mid-late 50s and was replaced by the f2.8 version which lasted until 1962 LTM and 1966 M. Lenses tended to fall within batches and are not recorded with the same precise date detail as cameras. As for the last of the originals, your guess is as good as mine, but I could ask Jim Lager which was the latest one which he has examined. 

William 

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My red scale Elmar f3.5 is from 1956, traditional screw mount design, given what was on the wiki seemed to contradict this it prompted my curiosity. Thanks for everyone’s contributions, William I’d be interested if you do discover anything definitive, thanks.

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55 minutes ago, 105012 said:

My red scale Elmar f3.5 is from 1956, traditional screw mount design, given what was on the wiki seemed to contradict this it prompted my curiosity. Thanks for everyone’s contributions, William I’d be interested if you do discover anything definitive, thanks.

Based on what I have posted above, it is not surprising to find a Red Scale Elmar from 1956. Jim Lager implies that the design lasted until 1959 and Laney shows 49 f3.5 LTM lenses being produced in 1959. However, there may have been some LTM lenses in the new mechanical formula, which is why I asked about that. According to Laney the last f3.5 M mount items were made in 1961, which fits with what is in Cavina's book. 

William 

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vor 9 Stunden schrieb willeica:

Does anyone have an LTM f3.5 lens in the new mechanical formula?

There is a rumor about one prototype. Though it is sure that it never went into production.

Another question: are there any late versions of the 1:3.5-Elmar (LTM or M) with „50mm“ instead of „5 cm“ ?

Edited by UliWer
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