Brand new MP/M-A/M6 film scratches [Merged]

[Matlock]

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10 hours ago, Jimmyp82 said:

I'll see what I can do. Might also visit aperture in London as they do leica repairs and ask their opinion on time and price. 

Aperture are good (although I have never had them work on a Leica) but, as Steve says, you are covered by the UK Sale of Goods Act, quote that and get a replacement.

[Jimmyp82]

5 minutes ago, Matlock said:

Aperture are good (although I have never had them work on a Leica) but, as Steve says, you are covered by the UK Sale of Goods Act, quote that and get a replacement.

I had a look and it says repair or replacement, there didn't seem to be a 'just replace' clause. But then I could well be reading it wrongly!! 

Apart from aperture any other recommended repair places? 

 

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[Matlock]

14 minutes ago, Jimmyp82 said:

I had a look and it says repair or replacement, there didn't seem to be a 'just replace' clause. But then I could well be reading it wrongly!! 

Apart from aperture any other recommended repair places? 

 

Yes repair or replace but as you bought the camera to use they have a duty to ensure you have a useable camera to hand, so they could lend you one. There are several good repair places in the UK but they are all pretty much snowed under with work so have very long waiting lists. Others might be able to help. The main problem is that if you choose to go along the independent repair path you will nullify the warrantee conditions.

[LocalHero1953]

The Sale of Goods Act in the UK has been replaced by the Consumer Rights Act since 2015.

You have a right to a refund up to 30 days. Thereafter and up to six months, aside from any guarantee provisions, the seller has the option to repair or replace; if the repair is unsuccessful then you can get a refund (I can't find any indication of how long a repair should take). After 6 months and up to 6 years, you have to be able to show it was faulty at the time of sale to get a repair or replacement. A guarantee is in addition to these rights.

Look at this site - there are useful comments about social media reports of failures and how they can be used to support the case that the product was faulty at time of sale.

[Matlock]

2 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

The Sale of Goods Act in the UK has been replaced by the Consumer Rights Act since 2015.

 

You are, of course, correct but I think everyone still refers to "The Sale of Goods Act".

[Jimmyp82]

On 3/24/2023 at 8:15 AM, BjarniM said:

When was your camera manufactured? It should state month and year on the outer box…

19th may 2022

[lefse]

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I have some interesting information (or hearsay) regarding the manufacturing of the analogue M cameras.

According to the Leica dealer in Oslo, they’ve run into problems after demand skyrocketed with the new M6.

Apparently they’ve had to bring back former employees to be able keep up, and teach newer employees how to build the analogue cameras.

A worker spends 5-6 months learning the trade before becoming proficient enough to assemble the old school film cameras.

This could explain some of the problems with scratching and quality control…

For what it’s worth(!), the margins on the digital M’s are way higher than the analogue versions. From what I’ve gathered.

Edited April 6, 2023 by lefse
Typo

[Jimmyp82]

Quote

For what it’s worth(!), the margins on the digital M’s are way higher than the analogue versions. From what I’ve gathered.

As in profit margins or technical build quality margins?

[lefse]

1 hour ago, Jimmyp82 said:

As in profit margins or technical build quality margins?

Profit. Which makes sense. Considering you have tons of parts. Not a few printed circuit boards.

Edited April 6, 2023 by lefse

[williamj]

4 hours ago, lefse said:

I have some interesting information (or hearsay) regarding the manufacturing of the analogue M cameras.

According to the Leica dealer in Oslo, they’ve run into problems after demand skyrocketed with the new M6.

Apparently they’ve had to bring back former employees to be able keep up, and teach newer employees how to build the analogue cameras.

A worker spends 5-6 months learning the trade before becoming proficient enough to assemble the old school film cameras.

This could explain some of the problems with scratching and quality control…

For what it’s worth(!), the margins on the digital M’s are way higher than the analogue versions. From what I’ve gathered.

That's a very interesting story, which kind of makes sense. I wonder if anyone else has heard this story from an independent source, either from another dealer or perhaps a source in Wetzlar itself.

[TomB_tx]

6 hours ago, lefse said:

Apparently they’ve had to bring back former employees to be able keep up, and teach newer employees how to build the analogue cameras.

A worker spends 5-6 months learning the trade before becoming proficient enough to assemble the old school film cameras.

Yes - especially with products that have long been produced by long-term employees there develop lots of undocumented details about the process. A company I worked for found that out when transferring production of "legacy" products overseas, sending all the documentation and product engineers to get them started. Finally called back some old timers who explained how they did things beyond what was specified. No doubt Leica (like all modern companies that changed ownership) released most older employees, not realizing the expertise they were losing.

[Huss]

7 hours ago, lefse said:

I have some interesting information (or hearsay) regarding the manufacturing of the analogue M cameras.

According to the Leica dealer in Oslo, they’ve run into problems after demand skyrocketed with the new M6.

Apparently they’ve had to bring back former employees to be able keep up, and teach newer employees how to build the analogue cameras.

A worker spends 5-6 months learning the trade before becoming proficient enough to assemble the old school film cameras.

This could explain some of the problems with scratching and quality control…

For what it’s worth(!), the margins on the digital M’s are way higher than the analogue versions. From what I’ve gathered.

Unfortunately this is hearsay, not based on fact.

Christoph Mueller - Senior Product Manager Leica M-System - wrote to me and explicitly said it was due to a bad batch of pressure plates.

[hdmesa]

8 hours ago, lefse said:

I have some interesting information (or hearsay) regarding the manufacturing of the analogue M cameras.

According to the Leica dealer in Oslo, they’ve run into problems after demand skyrocketed with the new M6.

Apparently they’ve had to bring back former employees to be able keep up, and teach newer employees how to build the analogue cameras.

A worker spends 5-6 months learning the trade before becoming proficient enough to assemble the old school film cameras.

This could explain some of the problems with scratching and quality control…

For what it’s worth(!), the margins on the digital M’s are way higher than the analogue versions. From what I’ve gathered.

Hard to believe the margins are greater on digital. Digital M has to have the same rangefinder and mechanics as the film M (minus the spool/rewind/pressure plate) except it has the ghastly expensive sensor, electronics and cost of firmware development and maintenance. 

[lefse]

4 hours ago, Huss said:

Unfortunately this is hearsay, not based on fact.

Christoph Mueller - Senior Product Manager Leica M-System - wrote to me and explicitly said it was due to a bad batch of pressure plates.

He wrote to you and said that the quality control wasn’t off?

You get where I’m going with this… it’s not about a faulty batch of pressure plates. It’s about having experienced employees who are able to test/control for this before the whole batch has become part of the manufacturing chain.

Hence the need to bring back former employees. Plausible, but who knows….
Btw, you paraphrasing Müller is the very definition of hearsay 😉

[lefse]

3 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Hard to believe the margins are greater on digital. Digital M has to have the same rangefinder and mechanics as the film M (minus the spool/rewind/pressure plate) except it has the ghastly expensive sensor, electronics and cost of firmware development and maintenance. 

That could be. It certainly is a speculation, not based on anything that Leica’s top brass has stated.
However I still believe that the assemblywomen (and men) are way more costly when it comes to working hours spent building an analogue M. German wages are decent (considering the competition in, say, China).

[Matlock]

10 hours ago, lefse said:

That could be. It certainly is a speculation, not based on anything that Leica’s top brass has stated.
However I still believe that the assemblywomen (and men) are way more costly when it comes to working hours spent building an analogue M. German wages are decent (considering the competition in, say, China).

Yes but they are made in Portugal.

[Huss]

10 hours ago, lefse said:

He wrote to you and said that the quality control wasn’t off?

You get where I’m going with this… it’s not about a faulty batch of pressure plates. It’s about having experienced employees who are able to test/control for this before the whole batch has become part of the manufacturing chain.

Hence the need to bring back former employees. Plausible, but who knows….
Btw, you paraphrasing Müller is the very definition of hearsay 😉

I am paraphrasing because it was a communication between him and me, and I did not want to quote him directly w/o his permission.

Due to his position at Leica.

I did paste earlier in this thread a letter from Leica NJ saying the exact same thing - in that one I redacted the person’s name as he was not of the same stature.

It really is that simple, defective pressure plates.  And it has nothing to do w the new M6 and the story about grabbing bowls of soup away from retired workers, yanking them out if their rocking chairs so they can get back to work to meet demand caused by the M6.  How so?  Because this defective pressure plate issue is not new.  It has also plagued the MP and M-A for several years now.  Years before the new M6 was released.

[Huss]

42 minutes ago, Matlock said:

Yes but they are made in Portugal.

Because Portugal has the cheapest wages in Europe.  ‘Final assembly’ is performed in Germany to get that coveted Made in Germany label.

[Matlock]

2 minutes ago, Huss said:

Because Portugal has the cheapest wages in Europe.  ‘Final assembly’ is performed in Germany to get that coveted Made in Germany label.

Yes but 'Final assembly' is open to interpretation as has been well reported. Also Portugal has been making Leica products for many years and has an enviable reputation. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[lefse]

5 hours ago, Huss said:

am paraphrasing because it was a communication between him and me, and I did not want to quote him directly w/o his permission.

Due to his position at Leica.

I did paste earlier in this thread a letter from Leica NJ saying the exact same thing - in that one I redacted the person’s name as he was not of the same stature.

It really is that simple, defective pressure plates.  And it has nothing to do w the new M6 and the story about grabbing bowls of soup away from retired workers, yanking them out if their rocking chairs so they can get back to work to meet demand caused by the M6.  How so?  Because this defective pressure plate issue is not new.  It has also plagued the MP and M-A for several years now.  Years before the new M6 was released.

What I stated isn’t necessarily the case. However you seem dead on confident.

Your argument about the bad pressure plates having been an issue for years only confirms what you didn’t address: Lack of skilled quality control. Only difference being that demand now has gone up, making it painfully more obvious. Basically, they sent a faulty camera to a well known reviewer. They’re not cherry picking.

To me it still seems more likely that they’re struggling to get enough skilled workers, something that should be sorted out shortly (if not already).

Anyway, I believe we both agree that it is amazing that Leica keeps being Leica, and still manufacture the classic (film) M, now in more versions than ever!