monza Posted October 11, 2007 Share #21 Posted October 11, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) All these issues that I've been reading about are keeping me from buying an M8. Having been in the electronics biz for a long time, I am familiar with product and component failures on new products; it's never been a concern for me before as usually the failures are a fairly low percentage of the units in the field, even if forum posts tend to inflate/exaggerate the magnitude of the situation. However this doesn't appear to be the case with the M8...it would be different if people were to send back the M8 just once...it's the sending back again and again that is my primary concern. Further, what's going to happen when the warranty expires? Is it going to be, say, $500 a pop for a repair charges, multiple times? Or is Leica going to honor the loyal customers who have put up with multiple repairs by providing an extended warranty? I've had every M Leica at one time or another (except M1, MP and M8) and it pains me to write this...but perhaps Leica needs to partner with another manufacturer who is better at the electronics side of the equation, to improve quality control... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 11, 2007 Posted October 11, 2007 Hi monza, Take a look here My M8 has died again. What should I do ?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
guy Posted October 11, 2007 Share #22 Posted October 11, 2007 Richard--I think a lot of the flak was just good natured ribbing, but I do think several people were kind of shocked to hear someone was selling their M8 ostensibly because the sensor was dirty. Obviously, there was more to it than that and if your confidence in the product was shattered you shouldn't keep it. Being an early M8 owner has been, for many of us, like having a colicky baby--initially very exasperating and frustrating, but rewarding once the phase has passed. I hope you didn't take any of the comments too personally. As the proud owner of both an M8 and a colicky baby, I just wanted to say, great analogy! The M8 is back in Germany again (it's now backfocusing on its new 50mm lux, though suddenly and for no readily understandable reason). The baby is no longer colicky but is now on his fourth tooth, so, swings and roundabouts... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tummydoc Posted October 11, 2007 Share #23 Posted October 11, 2007 Further, what's going to happen when the warranty expires? Perhaps Leica's new management will offer to sell warranty extensions...it's a huge profit centre for the automobile, electronics and appliance industries. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olsen Posted October 11, 2007 Share #24 Posted October 11, 2007 This worries me. My M8 locked up several times on a trip to Colorado last week. Everything would go blank except for the small red light on the back would come on when I would press the shutter button. No other displays would work and the shutter would not fire. Removing the battery and putting it back in solved the problem. I hope it is not a warning of things to come. Paul, This has happened to me too. It is a battery current problem. Not more of a problem than removing the battery and replace it with a fully charged one will make the camera work again. I guess this is what is called 'a small death'. If at all a 'death'. No big deal. For amateurs, at least. More of a hassle for pro's. I live in Oslo. One of the driest places on the planet if we get a frozen fjord and a cold winter. Then humidity drops to 35%. I go regularly to Helsinki which gets similar humidity levels if the Bay of Finland freezes. We haven't seen hard winters since the 80', though. But inland Scandinavia offers regularly cold winters and low humidity. Places I visit regularly going skiing etc. I bought my M8 last April (serial no. 3109423) and have no idea of how it will take the winter. The first snow hit the north of Norway this week. I'll keep you posted. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruiespanhol Posted October 11, 2007 Share #25 Posted October 11, 2007 I sent my camera back to Solms once for the sensor mod. Then it died and they swapped it. Now the new one has died again. What should I do ? I am a bit frustrated by a camera which is unreliable. Edmund It´s shame when one person waste more then 4000EUR in one camera and this occur. For me Leica is only film cameras not digital. They nead to learn much more about that matter after I buy one. I never pay so much money for one camera very much unreliable like the M8. Sorry Leica but is my point of view. Best, Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted October 11, 2007 Share #26 Posted October 11, 2007 It´s shame when one person waste more then 4000EUR in one camera and this occur.For me Leica is only film cameras not digital. They nead to learn much more about that matter after I buy one. I never pay so much money for one camera very much unreliable like the M8. Sorry Leica but is my point of view. Best, Your view is skewed by SOME posts about problems. I have had 3, and still have 2, M8's and all of them have never failed in any way. The first one I had was replaced because of reasons having nothing to do with any failures or image quality. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
monza Posted October 11, 2007 Share #27 Posted October 11, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) It's good that some people are having no reliability problems, but it appears there are plenty that are. I'm not sure that is a skewed viewpoint; it appears to be the actual situation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyspedden Posted October 11, 2007 Share #28 Posted October 11, 2007 It's good that some people are having no reliability problems, but it appears there are plenty that are. I'm not sure that is a skewed viewpoint; it appears to be the actual situation. Not clear either way. Those who have had problems certainly are active in communicating this, as they should. It helps others in their decision processes. However the total number of people who have communicated problems, as a percentage of the total number who have bought M8's, is very unclear. I suspect it is relatively small but given the price of the M8 and the super high standards by which Leica is (fairly) held makes it seem very untoward. I think that Steven Lee (and Leica overall) have done a good job of trying to offer early adopters some nice things to pay them for the problems with early cameras. When I think of what I paid for my WATE, with the 30% discount, and what I can sell it for now (if I can bear to part with it which is probably not!) I have financially come out ahead. The issues of sending it back to Solms, multiple times, to get problems resolved and taking months in the process is a very black eye for Leica. The fact that almost all on this forum are willing to put up with this (including me!) is telling that most Leica users are not using this gear for professional purposes. I don't see how those who make a living and thus depending upon reliable gear could possibly put up with this. So my take is that Leica is still here for those of us who are collectors and those of us who love those things mechanical that the Germans can be justifiably proud of. For those who need to run a photographic enterprise to make a living, this is simply not the product for you. The Nikons and Canons will get the job done leaving you to get the images you need to your clients in time to cover end of the month bills. Just MHO Woody Spedden Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
monza Posted October 12, 2007 Share #29 Posted October 12, 2007 The key word is in the title of the thread: 'again.' I can understand issues coming up with any new product with this degree of complication and merging of electronics and mechanics, but to have it happen to the same customers again and again? I'll just continue to enjoy film while Leica continues to work out the bugs, which I really hope they do, soon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted October 12, 2007 Share #30 Posted October 12, 2007 The key word is in the title of the thread: 'again.' Right I haven't had any failures with any of my M8's Again. There are always glitches with a new product. There were with the Nikon D200, the newest Canon and there probably will be with the newer Nikons once they hit the market. If you really like using a rangefinder camera and M lenses then the only person that is missing out by not buying a M8 is you. Not sure why you even bother coming to the M8 forum. It seems you have already made up your mind. I'm not going to buy a Jag or BMW so I don't bother going to there customer forums. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
monza Posted October 12, 2007 Share #31 Posted October 12, 2007 Well that's a helpful post. Is a completely dead camera that dies multiple times a 'glitch?' I had the Nikon D1 many years ago ($5K in Y2K dollars); magenta issues, anyone? And a D200 as well. Glitches. No aversion to risk here. Not trying to provoke anything, just expressing disappointment that the execution isn't much better. I too would love to get an M8, but I don't want to spend time shipping it all over the world, I would rather shoot. And yes, I own several Leicas, which is why I'm on the Leica User Forum. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eronald Posted October 12, 2007 Author Share #32 Posted October 12, 2007 So my take is that Leica is still here for those of us who are collectors and those of us who love those things mechanical that the Germans can be justifiably proud of. For those who need to run a photographic enterprise to make a living, this is simply not the product for you. The Nikons and Canons will get the job done leaving you to get the images you need to your clients in time to cover end of the month bills. Just MHO Woody Spedden I have given the camera back to the dealer who is a pro dealer and a regular commercial partner of mine and who is arranging for an exchange. If the new camera is reliable I will use it, if it fails I will sell it and give up on Leica for the time being. When I travel I usually have only a single pair of shoes, a single jacket, and a single camera. I expect these things to hold up, barring major accidents. Edmund Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
malcolm.mcintyre Posted October 12, 2007 Share #33 Posted October 12, 2007 While this forum is a hugely valuable information resource to new M8 owners, and I am most grateful to the experienced posters, one must exercise caution. User forums for any product eg. cameras, computers, hi-fi and particularly cars, will always tend to over represent the disatisfied few. If I buy a faulty product, I experience negative emotions and may seek to punish the manufacturer by exposing this disatisfaction on a public forum. If I buy a faultless product, I will go out and use it and may not bother hanging around fora. I once bought an expensive sports car and initially spent ages on the user forum. The forum was full of poor reliability reports and although my car remained faultless, I let the ownership experience be spoiled because I was constantly listening for noises and waiting for it to break down. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted October 12, 2007 Share #34 Posted October 12, 2007 The fact that almost all on this forum are willing to put up with this (including me!) is telling that most Leica users are not using this gear for professional purposes. I don't see how those who make a living and thus depending upon reliable gear could possibly put up with this. So my take is that Leica is still here for those of us who are collectors and those of us who love those things mechanical that the Germans can be justifiably proud of. For those who need to run a photographic enterprise to make a living, this is simply not the product for you. The Nikons and Canons will get the job done leaving you to get the images you need to your clients in time to cover end of the month bills. Just MHO Woody Spedden Woody - I couldn't agree less with your overall characterisation of Leica users as amateurs and dilettante collectors with too much money. OK - I only make around 30% of my annual income from photography - my photo business is based on commissioned documentary work, either social development, theatre, or performance. However, when I do do a job it's as critical for my client as a wedding or commercial job. We're all used to the pressure of the photographing the un-repeatable. I use the M8 because it gets me into the places where I need to be in a way that I can't manage with a 1 series Canon. Same as in the old days when I used my Canon 1v with long lenses and the M6 + a 28 or 35 for closer intimate work. I'm just back from a trip to Poland and Latvia where I used the M8 + 28 & 75 lux and a 5D + 16-35 / 85 1.2 for documentation (supplemented by 1D2 + 70-200 + 1.4 extender for theatre work). A three body setup that I could pack into a carry-on INCLUDING a laptop. For a trip to Belfast this weekend I'll take a Domke satchel with M8 + 28 & 135 APO + the 5D, 85 f1.2 and 16-35 f2.8. The M8 is the right tool for the job, and complements other tools in the line-up. I've not been unlucky like some (I prefer to look at it this way) and my 2 M8 bodies have delivered flawlessly. I agree with others on this list that those with problems (justifiably) make the most noise - I just want to chip in with this comment to anyone dropping in, that in the experience of this user, the M8 is a useful professional tool. It's not an investment, it's not a piece of jewellery, it's not a personal style statement, it's not a self-indulgent whim for those with grey dollars, it's a camera. It works. Best Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted October 12, 2007 Share #35 Posted October 12, 2007 While this forum is a hugely valuable information resource to new M8 owners, and I am most grateful to the experienced posters, one must exercise caution. User forums for any product eg. cameras, computers, hi-fi and particularly cars, will always tend to over represent the disatisfied few. If I buy a faulty product, I experience negative emotions and may seek to punish the manufacturer by exposing this disatisfaction on a public forum. I think this is generally true - there will tend to be an over-representation of dissatisfied customers on a public forum because it allows for a 'letting-off of steam'. However, in most (if not all) of the cases that I've seen here, it isn't the first-time poster coming to the forum especially to express their dissatisfaction with the camera - quite the reverse, it's often long-time members who've been more than happy to share their enthusiasm about the camera when it was working correctly. We hear a lot of talk from people along the lines of: "Leica have sold 10 (or 20, or whatever) thousand cameras, and I've only read about 5 going wrong..." But in actual fact, we should obviously expect a statistically equivalent number of failures amongst the silent majority of customers (who've never even heard of this forum), as amongst the forum members themselves. The strong loyalty of Leica customers may even encourage an under-reporting of failures on this forum: rsh hardly got a sympathetic hearing when he announced he was giving-up on the M8 - I doubt that others who may be doing the same will be rushing to tell everyone about it here after the attacks we saw in that thread. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted October 12, 2007 Share #36 Posted October 12, 2007 Edmund, Sorry to hear about your problems. I am hoping my M8 survives for one more month for my medical tourism trip to South Africa before it goes back to Solms. It is showing increasing signs of crankiness and cleaning the sensor is becoming a nightmare, with at least two or three lock-ups at most cleans. The worrying one is when the shutter will not shut again. If I did not have three batteries, I would be wholly stuck, as it needs a battery straight out of the charger to reboot it - often twice. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
monza Posted October 12, 2007 Share #37 Posted October 12, 2007 Regarding the M8, if I made a living off photography, oddly enough, I probably *would* own an M8; but I'd also carry other cameras to offset the risk...maybe even a second M8. This is akin to carrying extra mechanical bodies back in the day when battery-only cameras were starting to appear. Eventually this became a non-issue, just like the M8 problems will become. As an amateur, and a Leica fan, I lament the situation. Not only would I prefer to be shooting with an M8 (I juggled finances and equipment sales in preparation for an M8 purchase but in the end decided to wait.) It's also unfortunate Leica has taken a black eye; I only hope they can somehow turn this negative (no matter how narrow- or wide-spread it may be) into a positive by offering additional benefits to the early adopters. They could also spend some money bringing full repair capability to their largest market, so repair turn-around could be faster. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 12, 2007 Share #38 Posted October 12, 2007 I run two M8's and i had SDS so i do have fingers crossed. I think Edmund has a older version from the SDS heyday and reason it failed. A replacement body should clear that up. unfortunetly we have a leftover from the beginning. New bodies today we have seen very little in the way of hardware issue, i think we can all agree it has been a lot quiet around here. I wish it was dead silent on this but some stuff will happen. i say don't panic it is not back just a leftover from that time period Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted October 12, 2007 Share #39 Posted October 12, 2007 Well, I make 100% of my living from photography and I would be using my M8 for jobs except....it's currently back to the motherland (unless NJ can take care of the problem). So a cool job I have next week doing an essay on Somalian taxi drivers I'm going to do with a film camera instead and scan on my Imacon. It cuts into the fixed budget for the job but I really have no choice; anyway it'll probably look great shooting it with Mamiya 6/7. I'm very tempted to take a hit and sell the M8 when it returns (it had sticky framelines, and was a replacement body for my original lemon) and invest in a D3 and stick to my M7. Yes, it takes very nice pictures, but theres' so much about it that is just a pain in the ass from coding lenses (still haven't got all my wides done yet because I don't want to be without) to really bad framing. And yes it also has freeze-ups. I doubt there's anything Leica can do about that at the moment. Or does replacing the T2 take care of that? Maybe I should have them do that while it's with them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LichMD Posted October 12, 2007 Share #40 Posted October 12, 2007 I'm an amateur, but an avid photographer. I've had my M8 since Feb of this year, when I couldn't stand reading about and viewing all the great photos on this forum without feeling left out. I've shot over 12k photos in that time including 2 family members weddings and one engagement ceremony. No SDS, no sticky framelines, no LCD issues, etc. I just returned from a trip to India taking about 400 shots a day in very humid high temperature environments, I found that 1 battery would last about 1 full 2Gb card (DNGs +JPEG) but since I have three batteries on rotation that was never a problem. I've given away or sold all my Canon bodies (EOS 3, 5, 20D) and glass and carried only a small P&S as back up. Love my M8, wouldn't think about leaving it home. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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