paorin Posted December 4, 2022 Share #1 Posted December 4, 2022 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) One of the record of the changes in early screw mount Leica cameras, as can be seen in Vidom Spezial, is a mark in the frame window (to check the film transport), introduced in March 1933 with serial number 108000 and removed in January/February 1935 (because of complaints) with serial number 154200. There is a drawing that shows that it looks like a semicircle in the top middle of the frame window. I have a couple of III within that serial range (and both correspond to ranges of III, i.e. they weren’t upgraded), but I don’t see that mark. Have any of you seen that mark in a camera? Is the lack of the mark a sign that a camera in that range was repaired later and the shell changed? How was such a mark used to check the film transport? Edited December 4, 2022 by paorin Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 4, 2022 Posted December 4, 2022 Hi paorin, Take a look here Mark in the frame window. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Pyrogallol Posted December 4, 2022 Share #2 Posted December 4, 2022 Can you please show a picture of what you are referring to? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paorin Posted December 4, 2022 Author Share #3 Posted December 4, 2022 Sure, I’m referring to this entry in “Tagebuch für Leica-Änderungen” reproduced in Vidom Spezial 10/2010 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/352823-mark-in-the-frame-window/?do=findComment&comment=4588591'>More sharing options...
pop Posted December 4, 2022 Share #4 Posted December 4, 2022 5 minutes ago, paorin said: Sure, I’m referring to this entry in “Tagebuch für Leica-Änderungen” reproduced in Vidom Spezial 10/2010 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! "Ab 108000, März 33: Durch Anregung eines Kunden, wurde im Bildfenster des Verschlussrahmens, eine kl. Rundung für Film-Kontrolle angebracht. Im Januar 35 durch Reklamation wieder abgestellt." Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted December 4, 2022 Share #5 Posted December 4, 2022 (edited) never seen this mark, and i had some in the range opened. Only few of them have been converted, majority not. Photo shows 110xxx, original condition, not converted. As per note in Vidom mark should be approx there (Verschlussrahmen - shutter frame), to be honest I have no idea how this mark shall help to check the film. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited December 4, 2022 by jerzy Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/352823-mark-in-the-frame-window/?do=findComment&comment=4588627'>More sharing options...
pop Posted December 4, 2022 Share #6 Posted December 4, 2022 8 minutes ago, jerzy said: how this mark shall help to check the film It might be helpful to determine how far, exactly, the film has been transported between frames. The lateral edges of the gate might not be reliably detected when the focal length varies between frames. However, that must have been a very special case they tried to cover. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted December 4, 2022 Share #7 Posted December 4, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think you can see the round spot on the camera's rear hier in #11, the photo which shows the camera from behind: vor 1 Stunde schrieb jerzy: to be honest I have no idea how this mark shall help to check the film. Yes, the little half-moon opening might perhaps help to see the film sprockets moving, though I think you would better see the whole film moving just by looking on the frame. My Leica III 111011 which should be in the range indicated by the entry in the "Tagebuch" does not show the "rounding" described in the "Tagebuch". The OP also says that he cannot see them in other cameras in this range. So I think this is an example which teaches us not to take "original sources" as right in every aspect. Perhaps just one camera (the customer's one who suggested the "improvement" but later complained about it) was changed in the described way - even though the "Tagebuch" says "from 10800 onwards". Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted December 4, 2022 Share #8 Posted December 4, 2022 I have 116813, a 'bright chrome' III from 1933. I can just about see a tiny insignificant curved indent at the bottom of the picture frame - don't ask me to photograph it with my poor eyes 😎. I suspect that I would have to take the camera apart to see this properly. I have some other cameras in the range indicated above and if I can find the time I will look at them. To the extent that this was a meaningful addition, I suspect that it related to servicing rather than photography, but if Jerzy does not see how this might work for the purpose indicated, then nobody can. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrogallol Posted December 5, 2022 Share #9 Posted December 5, 2022 I haven’t seen the V shaped notch shown above, but I have several earlier cameras that have the curved cutout that shows in the top centre on prints if you print the whole negative with the rebates. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/352823-mark-in-the-frame-window/?do=findComment&comment=4589205'>More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted December 5, 2022 Share #10 Posted December 5, 2022 (edited) On 12/4/2022 at 6:31 PM, jerzy said: never seen this mark, and i had some in the range opened. Only few of them have been converted, majority not. Photo shows 110xxx, original condition, not converted. As per note in Vidom mark should be approx there (Verschlussrahmen - shutter frame), to be honest I have no idea how this mark shall help to check the film. Me too... do not understand its function...🙄.. but apparently they DID it (#9).... I wonder (scratching my head...🤒) could it be related to check someway the correct vertical position of shutter curtains ? could it be that with a slight vertical misalignement between the two curtains the semicircular shape doesn't look "regular" on the developed frame? and, noticed by user, reveals that shutter is better to be checked before further issues emerge ? 🤔 My German is poor at all, but the phrase "... Rundung für Film-Kontrolle angebracht" imho doesn't say anything clear... the correct spacing of frames is anyway easy to check on the neg (or... something related to printing/enlarging process ? Position of the neg within the enlarger's frame... ? 🤔) or even... facility to "write" small numbers on contact-printed strips with some proper gear ? When film manufacturers did introduce the frame numbering on 35mm films ? Edited December 5, 2022 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted December 5, 2022 Share #11 Posted December 5, 2022 (edited) This may be a frivolous idea, but the possibly apocryphal story is that Hasselblad introduced the notches in the film back so picture editors could be assured the negatives were made on top quality equipment. So there are no new ideas, and in around 1932 Contax had introduced the Contax 1 rangefinder that could have given Leica a run for it's money if they'd actually been reliable cameras. So was the 'notch' a momentary affectation by Leica or ordered by some users simply to show it's a Leica that made the negatives? Edited December 5, 2022 by 250swb 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted December 5, 2022 Share #12 Posted December 5, 2022 2 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said: Rundung für Film-Kontrolle angebracht" imho doesn't say anything clear Film-Kontrolle isn't clear at all, even for native German speakers. It literally translates to checking of the film. I can't think of any procedure to be applied to the film while it's in the camera. It might indeed assist in locating the center of the image area even for quite underexposed frames. But then, if you can't locate the edge of the frame for lack of signal, it can't matter much where you cut the film. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted December 6, 2022 Share #13 Posted December 6, 2022 as Pyrogallol mentioned msome other camera producers were using some markings in film frame, as well Leitz. Elmax cameras from the first batch (SN below approx 600) have upper egde rounded, similarly like on the photo (I marked rounding on the regular frame window), possibly Anastigmat as well, second batch of Elmax did not have it anymore. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! And short series of IIIC Wehrmacht cameras (391424 - 391700) had 2 small triangle notches as on drawing, very often notches have been removed later by the users 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! And short series of IIIC Wehrmacht cameras (391424 - 391700) had 2 small triangle notches as on drawing, very often notches have been removed later by the users ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/352823-mark-in-the-frame-window/?do=findComment&comment=4590372'>More sharing options...
willeica Posted December 6, 2022 Share #14 Posted December 6, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, jerzy said: as Pyrogallol mentioned msome other camera producers were using some markings in film frame, as well Leitz. Elmax cameras from the first batch (SN below approx 600) have upper egde rounded, similarly like on the photo (I marked rounding on the regular frame window), possibly Anastigmat as well, second batch of Elmax did not have it anymore. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! And short series of IIIC Wehrmacht cameras (391424 - 391700) had 2 small triangle notches as on drawing, very often notches have been removed later by the users Any thoughts about the purpose of all this? These things could only be properly seen when the camera was stripped down. The drawing above reminds me of what I saw on a negative strip taken by Barnack with the Ur-Leica around 1917. This is in the Leica Archives. I hope to look at the rest of the box of negatives the next time that I am in Wetzlar. Any thoughts about the indents and what their purpose is and what might have caused them ? William Edited December 6, 2022 by willeica Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted December 6, 2022 Share #15 Posted December 6, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, willeica said: Any thoughts about the purpose of all this? These things could only be properly seen when the camera was stripped down. The drawing above reminds me of what I saw on a negative strip taken by Barnack with the Ur-Leica around 1917. This is in the Leica Archives. I hope to look at the rest of the box of negatives the next time that I am in Wetzlar. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Any thoughts about the indents and what their purpose is and what might have caused them ? William This happened while I was editing my previous post. Is there any way that I can remove this? William Edited December 6, 2022 by willeica Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted December 6, 2022 Share #16 Posted December 6, 2022 As far as I am aware identifying features created on film frames are for two reasons. Firstly, there are registration marks, which are usually physical as in willeica's example, which allow the film to be accurately and repeatedly positioned after processing, for technical reasons. Sometimes this was achieved by sticking a strip of material alongside the film and such a solution was used in photo labs in the 1970/80s and allowed the automatic printing machines to correctly place the negatives in their 'film gate'. Cameras modified to include such marks are pin-register Nikons which were professionally modified cameras which produced physical cut-outs on the film which could be used for accurate placement of the negatives (in movie animation/sandwiching/whatever - https://soverf2repair.webs.com/pin-registered-f2's). Secondly, there are cameras which had visual 'identifiers' built in so that the 'provenance' of their images creating camera was known - apparently Hasselbad used notches to show that a shot was from one of their cameras. I have read that some photographers even added their own 'notches' to identify which film back had been used for a specific shot (and possibly to identify any which developed faults?). Roll film cameras did not have sprocket holes though nor was thir room for them. I cannot see that the slight curved cutaway referred to in this thread can have a function other than to, a) identify the negative as having been taken on a Leica, or b) having had another function (adjustment access???) but was referred to as having an added advantage in checking film transport - which should have been evident from varied internegative spacing in any case. There is one possibility, and that is that the positioning of the cutaway and sprocket holes may have served to show whether there was any problem in take-up/engagement of the film, but IMO this is tenuous unless it would create a problem, which I can't figure out it would. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
romanus53 Posted December 6, 2022 Share #17 Posted December 6, 2022 Am 5.12.2022 um 08:57 schrieb Pyrogallol: I haven’t seen the V shaped notch shown above, but I have several earlier cameras that have the curved cutout that shows in the top centre on prints if you print the whole negative with the rebates. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! In those early days when preloade film-cannisters were not common it might be helpful to just check wether some kind or stripe of film was inside. Can you see through the cut-out into the film-canal when taking the lens off? "Filmkontrolle" means to me as German speaker just check wether film is inside or not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted December 6, 2022 Share #18 Posted December 6, 2022 15 minutes ago, pgk said: ...there are cameras which had visual 'identifiers' built in so that the 'provenance' of their images creating camera was known......I have read that some photographers even added their own 'notches' to identify which film back had been used for a specific shot... Slightly off-topic, I know, but here's an image (which I happened to scan on Friday last week) which shows a semi-circular notch in the rebate lower-left-hand-side. This tells me that the photograph(*) was taken on my Nikon F2. The body was bought s/h and, never having met the original owner, I can't say for certain whether the indent was made deliberately or by accident. On close inspection, however, the notch appears to have been made very carefully and very possibly as an 'Identifier' as described by Paul in the passage quoted above; Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! This notch has proven to be rather handy. There were three bodies being used at this event; the F2, a Nikon F and a Leica M2. The Nikon F was used for action shots using 105 / 135 / 200mm lenses whereas the F2 and M2 were both used with shorter f/length lenses. As I know that the F was only used with long lenses checking to see wheter the notch is present allows me to tell exactly which body was used with any one particular frame therefore if I was contemplating posting an image here, in the Leica Forum, I'd be able to tell categorically whether the camera in use was the M2 or otherwise. Philip. * Snapped at approximately ten minutes past three o'clock on the afternoon of the 17th June 1984............ 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! This notch has proven to be rather handy. There were three bodies being used at this event; the F2, a Nikon F and a Leica M2. The Nikon F was used for action shots using 105 / 135 / 200mm lenses whereas the F2 and M2 were both used with shorter f/length lenses. As I know that the F was only used with long lenses checking to see wheter the notch is present allows me to tell exactly which body was used with any one particular frame therefore if I was contemplating posting an image here, in the Leica Forum, I'd be able to tell categorically whether the camera in use was the M2 or otherwise. Philip. * Snapped at approximately ten minutes past three o'clock on the afternoon of the 17th June 1984............ ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/352823-mark-in-the-frame-window/?do=findComment&comment=4590448'>More sharing options...
willeica Posted December 6, 2022 Share #19 Posted December 6, 2022 45 minutes ago, pgk said: As far as I am aware identifying features created on film frames are for two reasons. Firstly, there are registration marks, which are usually physical as in willeica's example, which allow the film to be accurately and repeatedly positioned after processing, for technical reasons. Sometimes this was achieved by sticking a strip of material alongside the film and such a solution was used in photo labs in the 1970/80s and allowed the automatic printing machines to correctly place the negatives in their 'film gate'. Cameras modified to include such marks are pin-register Nikons which were professionally modified cameras which produced physical cut-outs on the film which could be used for accurate placement of the negatives (in movie animation/sandwiching/whatever - https://soverf2repair.webs.com/pin-registered-f2's). Secondly, there are cameras which had visual 'identifiers' built in so that the 'provenance' of their images creating camera was known - apparently Hasselbad used notches to show that a shot was from one of their cameras. I have read that some photographers even added their own 'notches' to identify which film back had been used for a specific shot (and possibly to identify any which developed faults?). Roll film cameras did not have sprocket holes though nor was thir room for them. I cannot see that the slight curved cutaway referred to in this thread can have a function other than to, a) identify the negative as having been taken on a Leica, or b) having had another function (adjustment access???) but was referred to as having an added advantage in checking film transport - which should have been evident from varied internegative spacing in any case. There is one possibility, and that is that the positioning of the cutaway and sprocket holes may have served to show whether there was any problem in take-up/engagement of the film, but IMO this is tenuous unless it would create a problem, which I can't figure out it would. Thanks Paul In the case of the UR-Leica it was one of a kind in 1917 and 35mm still image handling and processing were in their infancy. I suspect that the physical notches were made as part of the processing for registration of the images. The notches do not intrude on the printed images, see below. This should also be obvious from the top frame on the negative which I have shown above, which is the same one that was used to make the print below. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I have some cameras to check back on in the number range shown above. The mark on my bright chrome III mentioned above is tiny. I suspect that the mark was for servicing and was intended to ensure that the winding film was completely horizontal. I have many early Leica manuals and this feature is not mentioned, so, I believe it was for service rather than actual use. Tagebuch für Leica-Änderungen according to Google Translate means 'Journal for Leica Modifications'. William 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I have some cameras to check back on in the number range shown above. The mark on my bright chrome III mentioned above is tiny. I suspect that the mark was for servicing and was intended to ensure that the winding film was completely horizontal. I have many early Leica manuals and this feature is not mentioned, so, I believe it was for service rather than actual use. Tagebuch für Leica-Änderungen according to Google Translate means 'Journal for Leica Modifications'. William ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/352823-mark-in-the-frame-window/?do=findComment&comment=4590478'>More sharing options...
pgk Posted December 6, 2022 Share #20 Posted December 6, 2022 36 minutes ago, willeica said: In the case of the UR-Leica it was one of a kind in 1917 and 35mm still image handling and processing were in their infancy. I suspect that the physical notches were made as part of the processing for registration of the images. I just wonder if such notches were used in movies to identify frames for printing for press release? No doubt a movie buff will know. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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