Leica R 50mm F/1.4 Summilux Version 1 or 2 or Other?

[bherman01545]

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I know that there have been a few postings regarding this topic, but I just wanted to throw it out there again for a refresh.

I bought a Leica Summilux-R 50mm F/1.4 E55 Ver. II V2 Lens Germany or a Version II lens.

 When I looked it up online, based on the weight (+/-) 400g, the filter size E55 and the serial number 3115480, it says that it is a VI or Version 1 lens. I confirmed this on the Leica R Wiki pages. My lens looks like the gold one on the right, except that it is black.

 https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/50mm_f/1.4_Summilux-R_I

 The latest Version II lens is supposedly 700g (probably not correct) has ROM contacts and an E60 filter size.

 Leica is tricky with their naming conventions. I think that there is a V1 and V2 lens. The V1 is an E43 filter size and there is apparently a V2, which is an E55 lens.

 Then, there is also a V2 lens in an E60 with ROM contacts, which is a great lens, but isn’t what I need.  I will be using the lens on BOTH my Leicaflex SL2 film camera and on my Leica SL2-S with the R-L Adapter, so the one with the ROM contacts won’t fit.

 The late, great, Erwin Puts stated in his Leica R Compendium that the Summilux VII (E60) is far superior to the VI, and even the newer version 50mm F2 Summicron R is superior to the 50mm Summilux V1.

It appears as if my version of the Summilux isn’t really that good unless you stop down to at least F/2.8 or F/4.0.

 

Does Anyone have any experience and have actually owned and tested these lenses? Perhaps I should have saved the additional money and bought the Summicron?

 Thanks!

-Brad

 

[hepcat]

A question, Brad.  Have you used the lens?  Are you happy with it's results?   I have a 1970 vintage V1 Summilux 2 cam I recently had DAG convert to 3 cam.  It is delightful.  That's the TRUE test of a lens, MTF and wall charts notwithstanding.  In general use, all that "this lens  is better than that lens" is largely engineering data turned into marketing hype.   I don't think I've ever owned a lens that didn't perform better than I do as a photographer.

Large aperture lenses were made to shoot wide-open.  You'll very likely have more issues with plane of focus than edge softness or other aberrations in actual use.  No one can tell from a photo what lens/body/film combination was used to make it.  Most of the arguments you read about "better" in lens discussions is academic rather than practical.

My counsel is to just go shoot with it and enjoy it.  It'll likely be excellent.

On edit... Red Dot Camera's database says this about yours...

The Lens with serial Number 3115480 is a Summilux-R 50mm f/1.4, build in the year 1981. 1000 were made.

Edited December 1, 2022 by hepcat

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[bherman01545]

28 minutes ago, hepcat said:

A question, Brad.  Have you used the lens?  Are you happy with it's results?   I have a 1970 vintage V1 Summilux 2 cam I recently had DAG convert to 3 cam.  It is delightful.  That's the TRUE test of a lens, MTF and wall charts notwithstanding.  In general use, all that "this lens  is better than that lens" is largely engineering data turned into marketing hype.   I don't think I've ever owned a lens that didn't perform better than I do as a photographer.

Large aperture lenses were made to shoot wide-open.  You'll very likely have more issues with plane of focus than edge softness or other aberrations in actual use.  No one can tell from a photo what lens/body/film combination was used to make it.  Most of the arguments you read about "better" in lens discussions is academic rather than practical.

My counsel is to just go shoot with it and enjoy it.  It'll likely be excellent.

On edit... Red Dot Camera's database says this about yours...

The Lens with serial Number 3115480 is a Summilux-R 50mm f/1.4, build in the year 1981. 1000 were made.

Thanks for the reply. Nope, I haven't shot with it yet. My Leicaflex SL2 is currently at the DAG spa, and I'm awaiting a Leica R to L adapter from the EU. I'm sure that it will be great. I'm trying to get more educated on the R lens line, and stumbled upon a few articles where they were talking about different versions, etc.

My aftermarket adapter was just junk, so I splurged for the real one.

-Brad

Edited December 1, 2022 by bherman01545

[hepcat]

5 minutes ago, bherman01545 said:

Thanks for the reply. Nope, I haven't shot with it yet. My Leicaflex SL2 is currently at the DAG spa, and I'm awaiting a Leica R to L adapter from the EU. I'm sure that it will be great. I'm trying to get more educated on the R lens line, and stumbled upon a few articles where they were talking about different versions, etc.

My aftermarket adapter was just junk, so I splurged for the real one.

-Brad

I have a Leicaflex Standard, SL, and SL2 as well as an R5 and R6.2.  I most frequently use my lenses on my Lumix S1 with a Metabones adapter.   It is actually quite a nice adapter.  I couldn't bring myself to spend that much for the Leica adapter.    Yes, there are different versions of most of the lenses over the years.  Those versions may render slightly differently, and there may be one that renders better for a specific purpose;   but, that said,  the best one is the one you can to shoot today.  They are all competent in use. 

[bherman01545]

A Metabones or Novoflex Adapter would have worked fine. Mine was free, given as part of a sale, but the fit wasn't great. I bought the Leica one #16076, because If I ever decided to get a ROM lens and use it on my SL2-S, the Leica one with the ROM contacts will come in handy.

[hepcat]

3 minutes ago, bherman01545 said:

A Metabones or Novoflex Adapter would have worked fine. Mine was free, given as part of a sale, but the fit wasn't great. I bought the Leica one #16076, because If I ever decided to get a ROM lens and use it on my SL2-S, the Leica one with the ROM contacts will come in handy.

A good plan!  As I have no ROM lenses and no plans to buy any, it'd have been overkill for me.   I actually have a couple of Urth adapters for occasional use with my Hexanons and Yashinon DX lenses and they're nice quality for the cost.  Not up to Metabones or Novoflex standards, of course, but they do the job.

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by hepcat

[robert_parker]

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Hi Brad

I'm not sure if you've seen the thread but there has been a recent discussion on these points - hope that helps

 

 

[hansvons]

2 hours ago, cbass said:

As far as I know the V1 or V2 designation does not come from Leica, but from users of Leica lenses. Leica uses model numbers like 11 875 and 11 344.

The 11 875 is the original Summilux-R, which started production in 1970.

The next iteration is a redesigned body with a built-in lens hood and E55 filter. It is the same optical formula. I have read the coatings were improved, but I have no confirmation if this is actually true or rumor.

Well summarized.

I own the V1 with a built-in lens hood. Yes, both Versions 1 have the same lens formula. But assuming that coatings at some time changed/improved isn't far-fetched, as they did that with the Summicron siblings when they altered the housing to a built-in lens hood design. I don't find the older coating less usable. On the contrary, the older coating flares less colourful. That, of course, can be different from the Summilux series. 

Regardless, the V1 is a classic f1,4 Summilux with all the quirks for what we love it (flares, swirl, cat eyes, you name it). The V2 is a modern F1,4 without all these goodies/errors and improved sharpness, focal plane etc. I expect a manual vintage lens to render particularly moody images. Otherwise, I could go the AF route. The 50mm Summilux SL is a prime example of a modern Summilux. Mounted to an SL/2/S, you will get the eyeballs sharp all the time, but no swirl, cat eyes, etc., yet retain that Leica je ne sais quoi.

[bherman01545]

13 hours ago, cbass said:

As far as I know the V1 or V2 designation does not come from Leica, but from users of Leica lenses. Leica uses model numbers like 11 875 and 11 344.

The 11 875 is the original Summilux-R, which started production in 1970.

The next iteration is a redesigned body with a built-in lens hood and E55 filter. It is the same optical formula. I have read the coatings were improved, but I have no confirmation if this is actually true or rumor.

The 11 344 is a redesigned optical formula and the last version. It has a built-in lens hood and a E60 filter. Performance is improved over the previous versions.

Regarding adapters for Leica lenses, I would stick with rayqual/kindai for a few reasons. First, they have proper baffling and blackening of the internal surface. This allows a lens to perform as close as possible to original. How much this matters depends on the lens. It can vary from practically no difference to a significantly visible improvement in contrast. The baffling is there to make sure light does not hit the shiny gold pins by the sensor and reflect back at the rear element among other scenarios that can happen. I won't get into the other situations unless there is interest. The important point is proper blackening and baffling makes a difference. Second, they have precise adapter height. Almost every other if not every other adapter I know is slightly short. This means lenses can focus beyond infinity and infinity is reached before the infinity mark. This has a few consequences. One is useability. The hyperfocal distance scale is no longer accurate nor is infinity. Now infinity may be at the 15-meter marker or some other arbitrary location. The other issue is that lenses with curvature might not perform the same. Most of the old Leica lenses have plenty of curvature so they are susceptible to this issue. With certain lenses as you stop down and DOF increases you can reach an aperture where the effect of curvature is reduced or eliminated. When an adapter is too short you slightly shift the image circle projection location.

You can read more here:

Features of Rayqual Mount Adapters – JapanHobbyTool

Novoflex is the other adapter known for high quality, but it does not have the same effort put into baffling. I have also read that they are also slightly short and reach infinity sooner than on the original camera body. The last claim is second hand and not confirmed by me so if anybody with more accurate information can confirm or deny it would help.

If adapting to a Leica mirrorless body, then I assume the Leica adapter should also be precise and address some of these issues, but I have no knowledge here. Just assumptions. Looking at pictures Leica also has taken time to do proper baffling and blackening and claims to keep proper infinity.

Also, if your goal was general photography, then yes you could have bought the Summicron and saved some money. I use the 35-70 F4 zoom for general photography and the Summilux as a night photography lens.

Wow, good to know. I believe that my version Summilux is the 11777.

-Brad

[davidmknoble]

Just a point on the Leica R-L adapter and ROM lenses for the R system. As an example, the 80-200 f/4 ROM lens is a great travel zoom (I love the 70-180 f/2.8, but it is really heavy compared to the 80-200).  If you use the Leica adapter, it not only stores the f/stop, but also the focal length.  From a digital perspective, it is nice to have some of that data.

Just an FYI as you consider which future lenses you may want…

[dpitt]

Just to be clear, ROM lenses do not work on the Leicaflex SL2, so the V2 version will not work unless you find a non ROM 2 or 3-cam version. Actually, I am not sure the non-ROM version isn’t always R without cams.

[bherman01545]

14 minutes ago, dpitt said:

Just to be clear, ROM lenses do not work on the Leicaflex SL2, so the V2 version will not work unless you find a non ROM 2 or 3-cam version. Actually, I am not sure the non-ROM version isn’t always R without cams.

Hi Robert;

 

I did see that one, thanks. I read the Erwin Puts articles and reviewed the postings, but still had questions, hence my new posting. I’m beginning to get what I was after.

-Brad

[bherman01545]

Thanks, I’ve come to realize the there is a V1 and V2 in the older 3 Cam version and there is also a V2 ROM version, which is a completely different lens. I am aware that ROM lenses won’t fit on my Leicaflex SL2, but it appears as if each generation of these lenses has their particular versions (per the Leica R Compendium and the various articles that I’ve read) 

[dpitt]

Actually, AFAIK buyers had the option to order any of the mount versions : 1 cam, 2 cam, 3 cam, R or ROM on most lenses. This would not change anything optically and mechanically it only changed the behavior on the different bodies. Of course, in the 70's the ROM option was not available, so older lenses could only be ordered in existing mounts.

Sometimes mounts and even ROM chips were retrofitted by Leica on lenses that were made before the mount type was available. Of course if owners wanted to pay for it... That means  V1 and V2 probably exist in any version, but V1 ROM's will be very rare for example.

[mayelo]

leica r summilux 50 mm f 1.4 2517449

I don't know what version it is

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/380368644773792/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A90e4c64a-4767-423c-a2b0-22d879746f8c

[andybarton]

Looks like an early version. It’s not worth anything line that kind of stupid money though. 

[AZN]

IMO the Summilux-R 50mm to get is the last E60 version (ROM 11344):

https://lens-db.com/leica-summilux-r-50mm-f14-ii-1998/

… which fixed most of the "problems" with earlier versions.  The only annoying things are (1) price and (2) the odd-ball E60 filter size.

Cannot do anything about the former, but you can work around the latter by using a 60→55mm step down ring.

I used this lens a couple of days ago when I had a "retro day" and shot B&W film in my R9 Anthracite. Used the analogue dial Gossen Luna-Pro F for metering and it was all transported in a Billingham Leica M combination bag 🙃

At ƒ4 the lens is fantastic.

Edited April 16 by AZN