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Summicron 90mm f2 v.1 Black paint/black finish


Leica_Guy_Dallas
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I am looking for information about this particular lens that I recently purchased. 

 

It is a Summicron 90mmf2 ELC with a Serial number 1983010.

This is what I have learned at this point:

  • Version 1 Lens based on scalloped focusing ring and aperture ring,
  • Serial Number indicated a 1963 production date but production of the version 1 ended in 1962
  • I was able to find out, based on the serial number (1983010) was the 10th lens made for 1963 but I still do not know if this is a very late version 1 lens or if it is a first batch of version 2.
  • It has a black finish but is often referred to as 'Black Paint' even though it is not a true black paint finish.

When did Leica first start producing black lenses that were not the true black paint finishes we all know? I thought the black finished lenses didn't come out until the late 1960's.

Any additional infor

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mation would greatly be appreciated.
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9 minutes ago, lct said:

The Summicron 90/2 v1 (SEOOM, 11123) has been launched in chrome finish and was available in black anodized finish (schwarz eloxiert) on request, then as standard. I have never heard of black paint for this lens but i may be missing something. You may wish to ask on the Collectors & Historica forum for more info.

I have found 2 sites referring to it as 'black chrome' - 'black paint' then saying is was not actual black paint and comparing it to the 35mm f2.8 8 elements. This is why it was all confusing to me. I knew it was not a true black paint and the $600 price was significantly lower than any 1950's/1960's black paint. I have a silver version of the same lens and enjoy using it often and thought another 90mm, this time in black would make a nice addition.

Thank you!

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1 minute ago, frame-it said:

i think there was a black paint version with aperture presets?

You are correct but it too had the same finish but considered RARE because of the aperture presets.

This is the aperture preset I found:

3 minutes ago, Leica_Guy_Dallas said:

I have found 2 sites referring to it as 'black chrome' - 'black paint' then saying is was not actual black paint and comparing it to the 35mm f2.8 8 elements. This is why it was all confusing to me. I knew it was not a true black paint and the $600 price was significantly lower than any 1950's/1960's black paint. I have a silver version of the same lens and enjoy using it often and thought another 90mm, this time in black would make a nice addition.

Thank you!

https://www.setadelstudios.com/collections/lenses/products/leica-leitz-90mm-summicron-f2-black-paint-seeof-m-pre-set-aperture-lens-rare

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3 minutes ago, Leica_Guy_Dallas said:

I have found 2 sites referring to it as 'black chrome' - 'black paint' then saying is was not actual black paint and comparing it to the 35mm f2.8 8 elements. This is why it was all confusing to me. I knew it was not a true black paint and the $600 price was significantly lower than any 1950's/1960's black paint. I have a silver version of the same lens and enjoy using it often and thought another 90mm, this time in black would make a nice addition.

Thank you!

Would this have been an early black chrome? I thought black finish lenses, not black paint, came out in the late 60's. I have a black Elmarit 90 from 1969 that was also considered an early model black chrome finish.

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4 minutes ago, lct said:

You may be right but i've never heard of this. The leaflet 11-39a (attached) refers to "black anodize finish on request" when the standard version was chrome.

11-39a_en_red.pdf 109.51 kB · 1 download

Wow, amazing stuff! So black anodized was by special request in 1962 but probably didn't come standard until much later.

 

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1 hour ago, Leica_Guy_Dallas said:

Wow, amazing stuff! So black anodized was by special request in 1962 but probably didn't come standard until much later.

Was standard chrome finish on the Leica catalog for 1964 and became standard black anodized on same for 1968 but it was version 2 of the lens then. Not sure if the 90/2 v1 has ever been standard black paint or black anodized but again i may be wrong.

Edited by lct
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vor 9 Stunden schrieb Leica_Guy_Dallas:

It has a black finish but is often referred to as 'Black Paint' even though it is not a true black paint finish.

Your lens is what Leica calls 'black chrome' finish. It is not black paint. Technically speaking, it is black anodized, a very robust and durable finish, just like the regular chrome finish. Many Leica lenses were and still are available in chrome and black chrome finish, whereas black paint is more of a special thing for limited edition lenses. Black paint finish is usually not as durable as black chrome.

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25 minutes ago, wizard said:

Your lens is what Leica calls 'black chrome' finish. It is not black paint. Technically speaking, it is black anodized, a very robust and durable finish, just like the regular chrome finish. Many Leica lenses were and still are available in chrome and black chrome finish, whereas black paint is more of a special thing for limited edition lenses. Black paint finish is usually not as durable as black chrome.

Do you think black chrome (schwarz verchrome) and black anodized (schwarz eloxiert) are the same thing? Just curious.

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vor einer Stunde schrieb lct:

Do you think black chrome (schwarz verchrome) and black anodized (schwarz eloxiert) are the same thing?

Yes, this is the same thing indeed. In German language, as far as I recall Leica has always referred to "schwarz verchromt" on the one hand and "silbern verchromt" or just "verchromt" on the other hand. Technically speaking, however, you cannot obtain a 'black chrome' finish by a traditional chroming process, which is why black anodized is the correct technical term. The fact that different processes are used to obtain a black chrome finish and a silver chrome finish, respectively, is also highlighted by the different material combination of the black chrome lenses on the one hand and the silver chrome lenses on the other hand (namely a mix of aluminum and brass for the black chrome lenses, where the aluminum parts are black anodized, and purely brass for the silver chrome lenses). Lately, however, at least some of the 'silver chrome' Leica lenses are also anodized, and those lenses are also constructed from a mix of aluminum and brass. I have not checked, but whenever the silver chrome version of any given lens is not heavier than the corresponding black chrome version, then also the silver chrome version will be anodized aluminum rather than traditionally chromed brass.

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vor 12 Stunden schrieb Leica_Guy_Dallas:

It is a Summicron 90mmf2 ELC with a Serial number 1983010.

This is what I have learned at this point:

  • Version 1 Lens based on scalloped focusing ring and aperture ring,
  • Serial Number indicated a 1963 production date but production of the version 1 ended in 1962
  • I was able to find out, based on the serial number (1983010) was the 10th lens made for 1963 but I still do not know if this is a very late version 1 lens or if it is a first batch of version 2.
  • It has a black finish but is often referred to as 'Black Paint' even though it is not a true black paint finish.

When did Leica first start producing black lenses that were not the true black paint finishes we all know? I thought the black finished lenses didn't come out until the late 1960's.

You might have a look into this older thread started by telewatt which was based on a lot of detailed information collected by Forum members and I think it is still the most precise for the 90mm Summicron. The last updated template is in #28: 

So according to this your lens 1983010 is a "Version I.2" from 1963.

Although this list does not say anything about when the black anodized version startet. The page from the cataloge in #8 shows that you could order an anodized lens on request, which looks to me that anodizing was no standard for the lens production. I also thought that anodized lenses were only introduced from 1965 onwards as standard types, but with lens types - like the 90mm Summicron - which came in both silver chrome and black anodized variants it's difficult to tell exactly when anodizing started as standard. It may be worthwhile to look when the production of lenses started which were always anodized. I think the earliest anodized only lens was the 1:2.8/135mm Elmarit (with goggles). Production for the Elmarit started in Midland at least in 1963, perhaps already in 1962. So we can assume that the Leitz Midland had the ability for anodizing lenses in serial production  in 1963 and your Summicron doesn't seem to be an outlier. 

Edited by UliWer
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