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Names, sensors, and AF issues.


Me Leica!

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I've been intrigued by the idea of the S system since I became aware of it. I'm a "function minimalist" in many ways, so I prefer cameras with fewer options and not the dazzling array of tricks found in many modern cameras. I tend to shoot static scenes a lot anyway, so I don't need the latest "see it and focus on it a hundred times before your eye has even noticed it" AF systems. I've started to see certain of the S models going for reasonable (in the context of "used Leica" anyway) prices and must admit to being interested in the idea of checking them out.

However, the more I read up on the S system, the more confusing it gets. What I've managed to take away thus far is:

The S3 is out of my price range and is overkill anyway, so of the rest:

Positives:

 - The lenses for the S system are exceptional

 - The battery life of the S cameras is very good

 - The cameras themselves are quite big but well designed and easy to hold, and, being Leicas, very solidly made.

Potential issues:

 - There are at least two CCD models, which have had the same sensor corrosion issue as the M9 had.

 - There is at least one CMOS model (I think its the 007), which (presumably) doesn't have the sensor corrosion issue. but (see next line)

 - Some of the cameras can "break" the AF of the lenses and this could also affect manual focusing, which would render the lens literally unusable.

 - There are fixes for both the corrosion and AF issues, but they may or may not be free depending on several factors.

Basically seems like you need the planets to align to get a problem-free camera-lens combo, but with all the names (006, 007, S-E, S2,...) it's not easy to work out what's what, so I figured that some of the good people here could present it in an easy-to-grasp way.

I am openly biased towards Leica products (I'm at the point where it is all about user experience; modern cameras are all so good that the differences in IQ become less and less of an issue as time goes on), but I would definitely like to avoid any potential issues if I were to get into this S system.

All advice, recommendations / dissuasion will be taken on board.

Thank you!

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The S(007) is a good choice. High DR, no sensor issues.

I believe (no hard data, though) that very few lenses out there have not had their motors upgraded. You can always check with Leica to see if that serial number has the fixed focus mechanism. I had all of mine done and never had a failure (before upgrading them or since).

It is easy and, given the price of used S lenses, relatively inexpensive to build a basic two or three lens S system and see if it's for you. Some cameras are lighter, some are easier to use, but none has given me better results. (Disclaimer: I have not used an IQ4-150, but have used pretty much everything else).

Best,

Matt

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I'll raise my hand and state that I had both failures the S system is known for: AF motor failure on my 120 APO, and sensor corrosion on my S006. I had a loaner S007 while the 006 was in Wetzlar for sensor replacement (free of charge to me), but didn't like it, so I was glad to get the 6 back. Recently I purchased a pristine copy of the 70mm Summarit and while I am very happy with it, I expect it to break down at some point. Here is a sample shot captured the second day I had the 70.

Re what path to take, I will say that the S system is not going anywhere (not forward, that is); it's a system frozen in time. Production numbers have always been low for lenses and bodies, so it's a bit of a miracle that prices for, say, a lens that new was 8K, have come down to around 3K, with AF motor replaced and warranty. Low supply and (even lower) demand I suppose. 

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The lineage is:

S2/S2P - CCD

S(006) - CCD

SE - different version of 006?

S(007) - CMOS

S3 - CMOS

I have hardly used any other camera (S2P, M9, M(240), CCD Monochrom) since I got my S(007).  Sold most of my M lenses as was not using them...

I have had motors replaced in most lenses and a sensor replacement on S2P, all for no charge and Leica picking up and delivering via courier.

john

 

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You'll find many people, myself included, who completely fell in love with the S(006) color and general "look". That that magic was missing from the S(007) and partially restored in the S3 I attribute more to profiles than to intrinsic technology. CMOS, having greater DR, is often lower contrast OOC in order to show more of the available detail. Higher contrast from the CCD profile also gives the impression of greater saturation. But we're talking small deviations from a VERY high level. 

Matt

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30 minutes ago, mgrayson3 said:

You'll find many people, myself included, who completely fell in love with the S(006) color and general "look". That that magic was missing from the S(007) and partially restored in the S3 I attribute more to profiles than to intrinsic technology. CMOS, having greater DR, is often lower contrast OOC in order to show more of the available detail. Higher contrast from the CCD profile also gives the impression of greater saturation. But we're talking small deviations from a VERY high level. 

Matt

I like CCD as well, but in this case the potential corrosion issue is offputting. And you can probably process CMOS to look CCD-ish with a bit of futzing around.

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14 hours ago, Me Leica! said:

- Some of the cameras can "break" the AF of the lenses and this could also affect manual focusing, which would render the lens literally unusable.

 - There are fixes for both the corrosion and AF issues, but they may or may not be free depending on several factors.

Most AF motor gears will eventually break, but it's not a huge deal. Leica fixes them for a reasonable price, which includes a full CLA and calibration. You can still focus the lens manually in most cases.

Leica will eventually run-out of replacement sensors for the S2, S2-P, S-006, and S-E. You need to check with your local importer if you are considering one. The replacement cost is quite high, but it may be worth it if you love the CCD look.

The difference in looks is the same as you would find between an M9 and an M(240). They are both great cameras, but the M9/S-006 look is unique, whereas the M(240)/S-007 is more mainstream. That's why the 006 has become a bit of a cult camera. I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually became more valuable than the 007, just like an M9 with a new sensor is.

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1 hour ago, robb said:

I’d love to see an example of the s006 vs s007 “look”

is it only in color differences or also a difference when converted to B&W?  :)

Robb

When I had both bodies, I tried to show a difference. I couldn't. And yet ... and yet...

S(006), 120/2.5 Macro from 2016

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This next pic used one of my favorite techniques - the 2 shot hand held focus stack using back-button AF. Focus on door, aim at lock, then shoot, AF, shoot. 

 

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2 hours ago, mgrayson3 said:

one of my favorite techniques - the 2 shot hand held focus stack using back-button AF. Focus on door, aim at lock, then shoot, AF, shoot

Very interesting technique. Thank you 🙏. What program do you use to stack the images?

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19 minutes ago, mgrayson3 said:

Probably PS. It’s not complex enough to require one of the big stackers. 

Thank you!
love your cityscape photography and the composition of your photographs. 
 

yevgeny

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In my article:
Leica S Seven Year Later, I write extensively about what to look out for when buying into the S system in 2022. A lot of it is applicable only to the S2, S006 bodies but I also discuss lenses and what can break etc.

https://jipvankuijk.nl/leica-s-e-typ-006-seven-years-later/

It's worth a read. 

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4 hours ago, jip said:

In my article:
Leica S Seven Year Later, I write extensively about what to look out for when buying into the S system in 2022. A lot of it is applicable only to the S2, S006 bodies but I also discuss lenses and what can break etc.

https://jipvankuijk.nl/leica-s-e-typ-006-seven-years-later/

It's worth a read. 

A nice read, thanks.

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