A wide-ranging question...

[Dr Cron]

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Hi folks:

Essentially I'm looking for a super wide lens.  Currently use film only (M3 and MP), but digital (esp. for international travel) possibly on horizons in a year or so.  
(For that attracted by the M10 but think that I wouldn't be buying a new digital camera unless I could get even more out of it in resolution than my current Nikon D800E - 36mpx - owned from new since 2014 and use mostly for film digitizing now).

Context: have a super-wide 40mm f/4 CF FLE for my Hasselblad 500C/M setup, but will be selling that setup to fund – it has got little use of late, esp. as I bought it to replace a stolen RZ67 which miraculously was recovered by the cops last year; other Leica M lenses: 50DR and 35FLE, a great mix of old/vintage and ultra-contrasty modern: latter makes a fantastic option for e.g. making Cyanotypes from digital negatives, given the opportunity provided by the f/1.4 aperture and 3D pop - see attached.

I'm aware of limitations of a w/a on M bodies, but will certainly use it.  I'm open to both new or used (more likely the latter if Leica, maybe).
Usage: mostly interiors, but also travel/architecture/documentary.  A wider aperture is I suppose useful but not at all essential (I've happily hand-held a medium-format f/4 w/a film lens indoors, for instance).

My original plan was to go with the Leica 24 super-elmar, but on reflection this isn't quite wide enough to replicate other wide-angles I've used/have (inc. up to 10x8), so thinking 21mm.
However, I'm also aware that I enjoy using the ultra-wide lens on my current iPhone at the different wide focal lengths.

On this basis I tried out both the 21mm super-elmar and the WATE at a Leica store recently (on an M11 - thus more an experience of a digital Leica than the lenses!), and am a bit stuck.  I'm also looking at Voigtlander equivalents esp. 21mm Ultron, which seems the best of Voigtlander bunch perhaps.  Leica store staff I sense were a bit snooty about WATE; I'm aware of its limitations/corner distortions but... it seemed to worked well.  And of course the haptics/ergonomics of these lenses are very familiar as v similar to my 35FLE.
Also, drawback of Voigtlander (at least for digital M) is lack of coding.  I'm yet to experience the Voigtlander but understanding that its build quality is excellent.

I only have space for one lens, including the relevant viewfinder (inc. possibly the Leica universal finder).

I'd welcome thoughts/observations I've not considered.  I'm not snooty but Leica has advantages of direct readiness for digital.  Buy Voigtlander Ultron for time being? (But I'm equally not particularly a fan of 'upgrading' and losing money: 'buy once, buy well'!!)
 

What would you do...? 

 

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[Al Brown]

Important question: what is the widest you are willing to go? Leica ends at 18mm single focal/16mm WATE, but there are options all the way down to 9mm and even a 12-24 zoom.

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[darylgo]

The 24/3.8 (discontinued) is the sharpest of Leica's wides, 46mm fitlers and a strong protective shade.  I also like the 18/3.4 and 24/3.8 combination, two tiny lenses, both discontinued but that wouldn't stop me from a purchase.   The 21/1.4 has a gorgeous rendering, smooth @ f1.4 and then sharp stopped down.   The older 21/2.8 aspherical must be good also as it's price keeps escalating, no experience with it but I do see some offered with a good price occasionally .  

33 minutes ago, Dr Cron said:

'buy once, buy well'

+1 and your full thought process is solid, let us know what you decide, good luck.   

 

[lct]

What do you prefer, a zoom or a prime lens? If a zoom the WATE is very good. The Hexanon 21-35/3.4-4.0 has a very good reputation but i have no experience with it. If you prefer a prime lens, 10, 15, 18, 21 or 24? If 21, the best is the Super-Elmar 21/3.4. The Skopar 21/3.5 is no slouch but shows a bit of CA in digital. The Skopar 21/4 has not this CA problem but can exhibit some red edges on early digital Ms. I have no experience with Summilux 21/1.4, Nokton 21/1.4 nor Ultron 21/1.8 sorry.

Edited November 24, 2022 by lct

[RexGig0]

The Zeiss C Biogon 21mm f/4,5 ZM has very low distortion, and the “C” refers to its compactness, if I recall correctly. It will have color shift evident, at the edges, when used on digital M cameras, except perhaps for the new M11. This is what I bought, to use on my M Type 246 Monochrom, which is not bothered by color shift. Film cameras are not bothered by this color shift, either. I really do like this lens. 

The “best” 21mm Voigtlander M lens now seems to be the Nokton 21mm f/1.4 ASPH. I bought one of these, to use on my M10, and early impressions are quite favorable. This one has 62mm filter threads, so, is not compact, but, I like it.

Edited November 24, 2022 by RexGig0

[Dr Cron]

3 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Important question: what is the widest you are willing to go? Leica ends at 18mm single focal/16mm WATE, but there are options all the way down to 9mm and even a 12-24 zoom.

Thanks: so I think the 16mm of the WATE is the widest I'd want to go.

[Dr Cron]

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3 hours ago, darylgo said:

The 24/3.8 (discontinued) is the sharpest of Leica's wides, 46mm fitlers and a strong protective shade.  I also like the 18/3.4 and 24/3.8 combination, two tiny lenses, both discontinued but that wouldn't stop me from a purchase.   The 21/1.4 has a gorgeous rendering, smooth @ f1.4 and then sharp stopped down.   The older 21/2.8 aspherical must be good also as it's price keeps escalating, no experience with it but I do see some offered with a good price occasionally .  

+1 and your full thought process is solid, let us know what you decide, good luck.   

 

Thanks: filter options is a consideration but not vital; I already have E39 and E46 => 21/3.8.  
21/2.8 looks good for everything but the silly hood.
Leica 21/1.4 is just too far into megabucks territory and both Leica and Voigtlander versions too big/heavy - might as well keep the Hasselblad lol!

[Dr Cron]

3 hours ago, lct said:

What do you prefer, a zoom or a prime lens? If a zoom the WATE is very good. The Hexanon 21-35/3.4-4.0 has a very good reputation but i have no experience with it. If you prefer a prime lens, 10, 15, 18, 21 or 24? If 21, the best is the Super-Elmar 21/3.4. The Skopar 21/3.5 is no slouch but shows a bit of CA in digital. The Skopar 21/4 has not this CA problem but can exhibit some red edges on early digital Ms. I have no experience with Summilux 21/1.4, Nokton 21/1.4 nor Ultron 21/1.8 sorry.

Thanks: I'd probably be interested to hear more from WATE owners. I think it's a toss-up between the three lenses I mentioned: WATE, 21/3.4, or Voigtlander Ultron. 
Perhaps I'll not go wrong with any of these, but I'm still mulling it over!  

Meanwhile, I'm assuming that choice of external viewfinders is a matter of preference.  Is the 'frankenfinder' a ridiculous thing (I didn't think to ask to try/see one), or are there users out there who swear by it despite its size (with all things being relative in Leica-land)?

[Dr Cron]

2 hours ago, RexGig0 said:

The Zeiss C Biogon 21mm f/4,5 ZM has very low distortion, and the “C” refers to its compactness, if I recall correctly. It will have color shift evident, at the edges, when used on digital M cameras, except perhaps for the new M11. This is what I bought, to use on my M Type 246 Monochrom, which is not bothered by color shift. Film cameras are not bothered by this color shift, either. I really do like this lens. 

The “best” 21mm Voigtlander M lens now seems to be the Nokton 21mm f/1.4 ASPH. I bought one of these, to use on my M10, and early impressions are quite favorable. This one has 62mm filter threads, so, is not compact, but, I like it.

Had a bad experience with a Zeiss lens in the past (iffy sample-variation) so not too keen to get my fingers burnt again.  Still pondering the Voigtlander!

[LeicaR10]

Dr Cron,  I see you already have a number of ideas from well meaning forum members who offer good advice, mine included here.  I would suggest you get a WATE, shoot it for a month or so and get use to it.  My experience with both the WATE and the Universal Finder makes a excellent way to see the scene and make corrections.  Especially if using M film or even digital cameras.  Here are some links that you might look at for WATE and M 18 & 21 SEM photographs.  All three M lenses are superb.  Hope this helps.  r/ Mark

Try:  https://onfotolife.com/lens_sample_photos?lens_id=330&page=1&focal_min=0&focal_max=800&aperture_min=0&aperture_max=32

Try:  https://onfotolife.com/lens_sample_photos?lens_id=336&page=1&focal_min=0&focal_max=800&aperture_min=0&aperture_max=32

Try:  https://onfotolife.com/lens_sample_photos?lens_id=331&page=1&focal_min=0&focal_max=800&aperture_min=0&aperture_max=32

PS  You can find excellent used copies of the WATE, 21 and 18 SEM on the websites of:  Camera West or Leica Store Miami.  Happy Holidays!

Edited November 24, 2022 by LeicaR10

[Dr Cron]

8 minutes ago, LeicaR10 said:

Dr Cron,  I see you already have a number of ideas from well meaning forum members who offer good advice, mine included here.  I would suggest you get a WATE, shoot it for a month or so and get use to it.  My experience with both the WATE and the Universal Finder makes a excellent way to see the scene and make corrections.  Especially if using M film or even digital cameras.  Here are some links that you might look at for WATE and M 18 & 21 SEM photographs.  All three M lenses are superb.  Hope this helps.  r/ Mark

Try:  https://onfotolife.com/lens_sample_photos?lens_id=330&page=1&focal_min=0&focal_max=800&aperture_min=0&aperture_max=32

Try:  https://onfotolife.com/lens_sample_photos?lens_id=336&page=1&focal_min=0&focal_max=800&aperture_min=0&aperture_max=32

Try:  https://onfotolife.com/lens_sample_photos?lens_id=331&page=1&focal_min=0&focal_max=800&aperture_min=0&aperture_max=32

PS  You can find excellent used copies of the WATE, 21 and 18 SEM on the websites of:  Camera West or Leica Store Miami.  Happy Holidays!

Many thanks indeed!

[pgk]

The 21SEM is the best 20/21mm lens I've used and owned (that's quite a lot). There is nothing to dislike about it or its performance. Its small, liht and the Leica VF is tried and tested as a compact soltion too. I'm biased but I cannot see that you could go wrong with the 21SEM unless there is a very good reason for a different focal length/versatility.

[01af]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb pgk:

The Super-Elmar-M 21 mm Asph is the best 20/21 mm lens I've used and owned (that's quite a lot).

Yes.

And yet, I prefer the Tri-Elmar-M 16-18-21 mm Asph over the Super-Elmar due to higher versatility and less vignetting, at almost the same level of sharpness. However, there's one thing I love about the Super-Elmar (besides sharpness)—the E46 filter size which is useful for film shooters.

[KFo]

I appreciate the buy once buy well philosophy!

Here is what I did:

I have an M10P.  When I went looking for a 21 I considered all the Leica options and decided to go with  voigtlander 21 f/4 color skopar.  I selected an screw mount silver version which I adapt with a Leica adapter.  I manually code the lens as Leica 21 2.8 11134 lens (the first one on the manual coding list in my M10P).  I find this controls the color fringing you've no doubt read about.

The skopar came out on top because:

1) Size.  It is the smallest option available.

2) Cost.  I didn't want to go all in with 21 until I'd decided that I could work well with it.  I have found my way in since then and enjoy the focal length.

3) Rendering.  Not super contrasty but as sharp as I’ll ever need.

After a few years with the Skopar I've got 21 f/3.4 on my list.  I have particular interests in the rendering of the 21 f/3.4.  Learned from Reid Reviews (a resource I cannot recommend highly enough) compared to the Skopar the Leica 21 f/3.4 is more flare resistant and more contrasty.  In particular I’m interested in higher contrast work (yes, Lightroom, etc, but…) so this lens fascinates me.  It’s a good bit larger than the Skopar and several times the price as well.  Nonetheless when I find a good used one it will be mine as well.

I never gave the faster f/2.8, f/1.4 lenses a serious look.  They are too large and heavy and don’t bring enough to the party compared to the skopar for my work.  Who knows, maybe a friend will someday loan me a 21 Summilux and I’ll be irrevocably contaminated.

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by KFo

[250swb]

22 hours ago, Dr Cron said:

Also, drawback of Voigtlander (at least for digital M) is lack of coding.  I'm yet to experience the Voigtlander but understanding that its build quality is excellent.

 

 

 

All modern Voigtlander and ZM lenses have a thin rebate machined into the face of the lens mount designed to accept a dab of black paint, so you can code the lens any way you like. Unlike coding a flat mount the paint won't wear off because it is just below the mating surface with the camera's mount.

[Dr Cron]

17 hours ago, 250swb said:

All modern Voigtlander and ZM lenses have a thin rebate machined into the face of the lens mount designed to accept a dab of black paint, so you can code the lens any way you like. Unlike coding a flat mount the paint won't wear off because it is just below the mating surface with the camera's mount.

Right!  Thanks.

[Herr Barnack]

On 11/25/2022 at 6:37 AM, pgk said:

The 21SEM is the best 20/21mm lens I've used and owned (that's quite a lot). There is nothing to dislike about it or its performance. Its small, liht and the Leica VF is tried and tested as a compact soltion too. I'm biased but I cannot see that you could go wrong with the 21SEM unless there is a very good reason for a different focal length/versatility.

I am onboard wth @pgk's assessment.  In fact, I agree so much that I bought a mint used copy of the 21 Super Elmar a few years back.

I have not yet gotten the Leica 21mm shoe mount OVF as I had thought I would.  With a digital M, it doesn't take long to learn to estimate how far the FOV of the 21mm goes beyond the FOV of the camera's viewfinder.

I have found that the 21mm FOV is as wide as I have ever needed, so there has been no compelling reason to go wider.  The 21 Super Elmar also does a very good job of delivering distortion free images as long as the user does his/her part.

Edited November 26, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[Dr Cron]

A quick update:
While I haven't actually made a purchase yet, I think I've settled on the 21 SEM. Essentially a toss-up between this and a second-hand WATE.
I'm more inclined to go with the 21mm; I love the rendering and overall direct compatibility with my 35FLE esp. on film (or film and digital), and feel it's slighter more future-proofed than the WATE, which is showing its age.
A recent shot with the FLE and TriX attached, shooting experience helping me to confirm this position on rendering and size/weight/usability - I'll probably be able to squeeze the 21SEM and a suitable finder into my Leica/Billingham Combo bag along with the 35FLE, 50DR inc. goggles, M3, MP, and accessories/film case and yet have minimal compromises (missing out on 16mm but not feeling hamstrung by the constant need to find wacky compositions to make that work to avoid utterly banal snaps of interesting things very far away!!).

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[Dr Cron]

Job done!  Two rolls of TriX exposed, will process soon.  Thanks for helping me reach an appropriate conclusion.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Dr Cron]

And just to say - I bought the silver finder since a) last one of any in stock (!), b) prefer silver on black to black on silver given that it will also be used on the M3.  V tight = good fit on MP shoe, a bit more loose on M3, will probably find a v thin plastic shim to use it with the M3.  

Bonus for me is same hood and filter thread as 35FLE; lens is compact enough that I can fit all of this, plus a plastic film case, a filters pouch, and small accessory bags in the Billingham M Combination bag.

All accessories inc film go in front zip pocket. M3 fits down left-hand slot, 50DR (inc. reversed hood and cap not pictured) in the 35FLE leather pouch in the right-hand slot, 21SEM in small neoprene pouch in bottom of main centre slot, with MP w/ 35FLE attached on top.
Only other thing I might use with this setup is my external Sekonic 758DR spot meter with the M3 (or the MP) when using slide film for closeup pictures.
Altogether, a wonderful setup that makes awesome A3+ inkjet prints from digitizations, and is a hell of a lot more portable than the Hasselblad 500CM I traded in, thus getting more use.