SL2-S rolling shutter examples - could Leica warn about it?

[MRJohn]

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Just in case you have never seen this before, here are unfortunately a few examples. - I sometimes shoot concerts and used the electronic shutter during a previous concert with zero issues. It was actually the first time that I had used the electronic shutter since the musicians did not want any "click". All shots (probably close to 800) were fine. So I thought this electronic shutter topic is an academic issue and doesn't really affect me. Next concert I used the same settings again. ALL shots were ruined, some 600. Very disappointing. It was at a different concert venue, so probably they have a different flicker in one of their light sources.

I guess I should have checked after a few shots if there was an issue with the venue, I did not, because I did not suspect it. I never check photos during a shoot, only when I get home. I might have picked it up and switched to manual shutter.

On the other hand, I think it might be possible for the camera to pick it up and warn, such an implementation feature should be possible. Modern algorithms should be able to analyze the photo and realize the deviation, and warn (until we get cameras with global shutters). So one can blame the photographer, but I also think Leica should be able to do better. 

- as a side note, I recently switched from the SL2 to the SL2-S due to low light performance, could not be more happy about this aspect

 

 

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[MediaFotografie]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb MRJohn:

Just in case you have never seen this before, here are unfortunately a few examples. - I sometimes shoot concerts and used the electronic shutter during a previous concert with zero issues. It was actually the first time that I had used the electronic shutter since the musicians did not want any "click". All shots (probably close to 800) were fine. So I thought this electronic shutter topic is an academic issue and doesn't really affect me. Next concert I used the same settings again. ALL shots were ruined, some 600. Very disappointing. It was at a different concert venue, so probably they have a different flicker in one of their light sources.

I guess I should have checked after a few shots if there was an issue with the venue, I did not, because I did not suspect it. I never check photos during a shoot, only when I get home. I might have picked it up and switched to manual shutter.

On the other hand, I think it might be possible for the camera to pick it up and warn, such an implementation feature should be possible. Modern algorithms should be able to analyze the photo and realize the deviation, and warn (until we get cameras with global shutters). So one can blame the photographer, but I also think Leica should be able to do better. 

- as a side note, I recently switched from the SL2 to the SL2-S due to low light performance, could not be more happy about this aspec

 

 

Hello Mark,

have recently observed something similar, also only with the electronic shutter with the SL2-S. I think it also depends on the type of lighting.

I can only confirm your words about the SL2-S and High-ISO, happy working with it

 

thomas

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[Jonathan Levin]

That bass player looks like dave holland.

[FrozenInTime]

I guess sometimes knowledge is just assumed:

There was a guy in New Zealand recently posting videos of how he destroyed a two week old Q2 at a show that included spinning laser lights. 

Does the Q2 manual warn of laser ? does the M6 manual warn against burning holes in the shutter cloth ? only in vaguest of terms using the same boilerplate text that also appears for example in the SL2-2 and Q2 manuals.

"A camera lens can have the effect of a magnifying glass when exposed to direct frontal sunlight. The camera must therefore be protected against extended exposure to direct sunlight.
• Attaching the lens cap and keeping the camera in the shade or ideally in its camera case, will help prevent damage to the interior of the camera."

Edited November 21, 2022 by FrozenInTime

[robb]

That is unfortunate.  I tried the E shutter indoors once and checked the images but in my case, the banding was so slight that I didn’t see it by checking the rear screen.  I only noticed it later.  While there may be a way to minimize or remove the banding from these situations, I just chalked it up to learning my lesson and simply don’t use the E-shutter indoors.  I don’t have zero sound requirements though… 

Reminds me of the first time I shot tv screens on film 35 years ago… lesson learned then also, but solved quickly with lower shutter speeds.  I never had to test that in each and every situation.  So to me, the E shutter is not worth the hassle indoors.

Robb

[LocalHero1953]

This is just something you will have to put down to experience I’m afraid. Almost all electronic shutters are vulnerable to this (the latest Nikons are said to be fairly invulnerable), and it behoves the photographer to check the risk. I shoot a lot indoors and for concerts and performances, and always check the lighting before I start. I can minimise the problem by selecting a suitable shutter speed, but never avoid it entirely. This is a pretty extreme example - the lighting must be powered by a square wave AC, or work on some sort of scanning strobe - but a simple check before you start every time would avoid such disappointments. 

Edited November 22, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[jaapv]

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Yes, this interference pattern is quite common with discontinuous light. It depends on the frequency of the light (usually 50 or 60 Hz) and the readout speed of the sensor. 

[Jean-Michel]

I gather that the readout time for the SL2 electronic shutter is about 1/30 second. So while each line on the sensor is exposed at the selected exposure time, it still takes about 1/30 second to record the image. With the electronic shutter, the SL2 can record up to 20 images-et second; that works out fine since 20 images will only need ⅔ of a second to readout the 20 images. 

[robb]

It seems that the new Nikon Z9 flagship which only has an e-shutter (doesn’t have a mech shutter at all) also exhibits these problems with interior lighting…

so it’s not just a Leica issue.  
 

I’ll stick to the excellent (for me) mech shutter in the SL2/SL2-s

Robb

[MRJohn]

8 hours ago, Jonathan Levin said:

That bass player looks like dave holland.

indeed! fantastic quartet with Loueke, Harland and Potter

[MRJohn]

6 hours ago, Artin said:

Over 3 years of using the SL2 and I have never used the E shutter... puzzled on how the shutter sound is heard in what looks like a Jazz concert ?

I think I am done with the feature, too 😉 - well, in louder passages it is not really noticable, but in more silent ones, a person next to you can hear it, they were more worried about the audience disturbance than themselves obviously. So if you have the feature why not use it. - in any case, I only post it as a sensitizer, my lesson is learned

[MRJohn]

1 hour ago, robb said:

It seems that the new Nikon Z9 flagship which only has an e-shutter (doesn’t have a mech shutter at all) also exhibits these problems with interior lighting…

so it’s not just a Leica issue.  
 

I’ll stick to the excellent (for me) mech shutter in the SL2/SL2-s

Robb

It is a pretty general issue, but since Leica is leading in body price, I would hope (not expect, or maybe expect) that if they can not yet technically prevent it from happening, at least they could think about a solution which assesses it/the risk (just like focus peaking is a software implementation, or the blown out highlight flagging...) and flags the issue, so the photographer can situationally use the e-shutter when safe (with its benefits) and the mechanical one when not. Most people do not need this feature, but since it is there, I guess it is supposed to be used sometimes. - As Robb said above, in his case it wasn't even noticeable on the rear screen check. So my take-away expanded learning is: do not use the e-shutter indoors (unless you can check with a laptop, which I never have with me).

[LocalHero1953]

11 minutes ago, MRJohn said:

It is a pretty general issue, but since Leica is leading in body price, I would hope (not expect, or maybe expect) that if they can not yet technically prevent it from happening, at least they could think about a solution which assesses it/the risk (just like focus peaking is a software implementation, or the blown out highlight flagging...) and flags the issue, so the photographer can situationally use the e-shutter when safe (with its benefits) and the mechanical one when not. Most people do not need this feature, but since it is there, I guess it is supposed to be used sometimes. - As Robb said above, in his case it wasn't even noticeable on the rear screen check. So my take-away expanded learning is: do not use the e-shutter indoors (unless you can check with a laptop, which I never have with me).

The example you show, with sharp edges, should have been easily seen on the LCD. It is sometimes more difficult to see when it is colour banding rather than brightness banding. In the case of colour banding you can often rescue the images by converting to B&W.

It is interesting to speculate how a 'banding detector' might work: I guess a light sensor that identifies high-frequency illuminance fluctuation would do it for your case, but more subtle colour balance fluctuation could be more hit and miss.

[MRJohn]

8 hours ago, FrozenInTime said:

I guess sometimes knowledge is just assumed:

There was a guy in New Zealand recently posting videos of how he destroyed a two week old Q2 at a show that included spinning laser lights. 

Does the Q2 manual warn of laser ? does the M6 manual warn against burning holes in the shutter cloth ? only in vaguest of terms using the same boilerplate text that also appears for example in the SL2-2 and Q2 manuals.

"A camera lens can have the effect of a magnifying glass when exposed to direct frontal sunlight. The camera must therefore be protected against extended exposure to direct sunlight.
• Attaching the lens cap and keeping the camera in the shade or ideally in its camera case, will help prevent damage to the interior of the camera."

I am not sure what you are trying to say. Why provide a manual if knowledge can be assumed? It all starts and stops somewhere.

I think Leica could update the manual in the main section and "inform" that the e-shutter is mainly intended for outdoor use, and use it at your own risk indoors due to the risk of this issue which sometimes can not be assessed by looking at the rear screen (they would have a more eloquent way of saying this). It is only mentioned in the troubleshoot section.

But this was not my main intention, what I mean with "warn" is that they could think about an in-camera feature which flags the risk/warns based on actual situation analysis. I am not sure this is possible, hence the question mark at the end. As with all software enhancement suggestions, it can get quite polarizing in this forum. I personally never comment on features which I do not need.

[robb]

I understand the need for low to no shutter noises during an orchestral performance.

I was shooting interior architecture in a concert hall in MA during a live performance.  I was using a digital back with view camera lenses… even just the slight click of the leaf shutter for that setup caused me to be very careful as to when I tripped the shutter even though the rest of the camera operation was essentially silent.  And I wasn’t there long (because of fear of annoying paid ticket holders closer to me)
I think a photographer who was shooting the musicians much closer in was using a sound blimp.

so I think an e-shutter for use indoors in particular would be revolutionary if they can get the tech to sync with the various lighting hertz.

I know my previous canon 1dx mk ii cameras would flash the word “flicker” when interior lighting sources (naked to the eye” would be changing color balance and intensity.  You would notice this when editing the files back in Lightroom.  Didn’t normally affect my type of images but it would if everything had to match perfectly like a catalog shoot or matching people.  So canon offered a custom function to only trip the shutter once the flicker was timed perfectly.  But I’m not interested in letting the camera do this for me… so I never explored the function.  It’s not very spontaneous.

I do use Leica’s e-shutter for all my multi-shot mode interior architecture images because you can only shoot using the e- shutter in that mode.  But my exposures are always between 1/15 and 1 sec so I have never had banding on any of my multishot images - thank goodness since I find that feature essential to some of my work.

Robb

Edited November 22, 2022 by robb

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, MRJohn said:

I am not sure what you are trying to say. Why provide a manual if knowledge can be assumed? It all starts and stops somewhere.

I think Leica could update the manual in the main section and "inform" that the e-shutter is mainly intended for outdoor use, and use it at your own risk indoors due to the risk of this issue which sometimes can not be assessed by looking at the rear screen (they would have a more eloquent way of saying this). It is only mentioned in the troubleshoot section.

But this was not my main intention, what I mean with "warn" is that they could think about an in-camera feature which flags the risk/warns based on actual situation analysis. I am not sure this is possible, hence the question mark at the end. As with all software enhancement suggestions, it can get quite polarizing in this forum. I personally never comment on features which I do not need.

Well, I guess that anything is possible in this miracle world and they do have overexposure blinkies etc., but how far must they go in holding your hand to avoid the many photographic situations that lead to a failed image?

[MRJohn]

4 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Well, I guess that anything is possible in this miracle world and they do have overexposure blinkies etc., but how far must they go in holding your hand to avoid the many photographic situations that lead to a failed image?

That is for Leica to decide, I only provide suggestions. I reserve the right to do so, you obviously do not need the feature, why do you care and comment then? Do some of us have the authority to filter or decide good from bad suggestions, on which basis? We are not talking about an M10-D here. - Btw, words like "holding your hand" make me look ridiculous, not a nice way of putting things. 

On the topic, the SL line is their flagship FF line in terms of quality, features and performance. Anything that makes it stand out from competition will be good for Leica. I have been using the brand continuously for almost 35 years, in many implementations there are features which I use, there are features which I do not use, there are features which are missing in my view. What I do is not Leica-bashing, it is called constructive criticism. Someone was recently successful in getting in "perspective control", which I never use but some of us need, kudos to the person who helped Leica innovate.

[jaapv]

I did not say that I would not “need”or want such a feature but I do philosophize about the amount of photographic skill that we want to transfer from the photographer to the camera. Are we not trying to take as much of the craft out of photography? Would a painter want a self-painting brush?  It used to be that they mixed their own paint. 
How much skill do you want to transfer to a camera? Does it need to warn for a bad composition for instance? 

[MRJohn]

46 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I did not say that I would not “need”or want such a feature but I do philosophize about the amount of photographic skill that we want to transfer from the photographer to the camera. Are we not trying to take as much of the craft out of photography? Would a painter want a self-painting brush?  It used to be that they mixed their own paint. 
How much skill do you want to transfer to a camera? Does it need to warn for a bad composition for instance? 

I can only speak for myself (and perhaps some by extrapolation) not for others (we) collectively. 

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[LocalHero1953]

4 hours ago, MRJohn said:

I think Leica could update the manual in the main section and "inform" that the e-shutter is mainly intended for outdoor use, and use it at your own risk indoors due to the risk of this issue which sometimes can not be assessed by looking at the rear screen (they would have a more eloquent way of saying this). It is only mentioned in the troubleshoot section.

The e-shutter can cause just as many problems outdoors as indoors - distortion of moving objects - and I am sure it is not intended mainly for outdoor use. The disadvantages of e-shutters have been recognised for many years and mitigated by photographers all that time. To be honest I was surprised that you (and I assume you are an experienced photographer) were not aware of it. But then I still get taken by surprise as well (e.g. I assumed the yellow colour of my early Barnack rangefinder was deterioration, when it is actually a 'feature') so you have my sympathy. Since it is such a simple thing to identify before taking lots of photos, I'm not surprised technological advance has focused on reducing the read-out time rather than adding new functionality ('Das Wesentliche' and all that).