Pancake M Lenses

[hirohhhh]

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I have the latest 50 and 28 summiluxes for my Ms and the old 28 elmarit-r with the M adaptor. All great lenses, but for certain situations they are huge. Sometimes I want to be able to hide my camera. I cannot put these lenses in my pocket or under the jacket, and I don't want to put them on and off the bag all the time. Even with my quite loose jacket my 28mm summilux with hood stick out too much. I found in these situations I more often just leave the camera at home and bring my phone only. Years ago I had Fuji x100f and it was so light and thin that I could fit it everywhere, so I used it more often than any of my Ms. And I'd like to be able to use my Ms more if I can shrink them in size a bit. (Back then I also had an SL and I thought if I purchase an M, I would carry it all the time, but today even M is too big sometimes, especially with those lenses)

So, what would be the best alternative to these lenses in much smaller size, so it can fit in my jacket pocket, or hang around my neck with zipped jacket.

[Jared]

28mm Summaron is tiny as long as you don't use the lens shade (and you don't need to). It is optically excellent, but quite slow at f/5.6 and has much more vignetting than a modern lens. Definitely meets your "much smaller size" requirement, though. If you want a modern lens, the 28mm Elmarit is also very small and incredibly good. Contrast for days. It's not quite a pancake, but it's still tiny.

As for a small 50mm... I think my vote would be for the Voigtlander Nokton 1.5 II if you want a new lens at a bargain price. Tiny. At least, for a 50 it's tiny. If you can find a 50mm Summarit f/2.4 or f/2.5 they are also quite small and light and optically superb. 

Edited November 20, 2022 by Jared

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[hirohhhh]

17 minutes ago, Jared said:

28mm Summaron is tiny as long as you don't use the lens shade (and you don't need to). It is optically excellent, but quite slow at f/5.6 and has much more vignetting than a modern lens. Definitely meets your "much smaller size" requirement, though. If you want a modern lens, the 28mm Elmarit is also very small and incredibly good. Contrast for days. It's not quite a pancake, but it's still tiny.

As for a small 50mm... I think my vote would be for the Voigtlander Nokton 1.5 II if you want a new lens at a bargain price. Tiny. At least, for a 50 it's tiny. If you can find a 50mm Summarit f/2.4 or f/2.5 they are also quite small and light and optically superb. 

Yeah Summaron is indeed much smaller, but 5.6! I'm used to my 1.4, not sure I'll be able to make a switch to 5.6 that easily, especially with film of iso 100 or so.

Voightlander is not as small as I'd like it to be.

Is there anything small like fuji x100f lens? I mean, look at that lens, it's almost like Leica M body cap.

[frame-it]

40 minutes ago, hirohhhh said:

what would be the best alternative to these lenses in much smaller size, so it can fit in my jacket pocket

https://www.japancamerahunter.com/2016/10/camera-geekery-ms-optics-apoqualia-g-28mm-f2/

https://www.japancamerahunter.com/2017/10/lens-test-ms-optics-historio-prot-40mm-6-3-mc/

https://www.japancamerahunter.com/2012/09/ms-optical-sonnetar-50mm-f1-1-test-pictures/

https://casualphotophile.com/2020/07/01/kobalux-wide-28mm-f-3-5-ltm-lens-review/

https://reddotcamera.net/leica-lenses/pancake/#1-voigtlander-color-skopar-35mm-f25

 

 

Edited November 20, 2022 by frame-it

[Jared]

You can’t really make a tiny 50mm except, perhaps, for some collapsible lenses. The relatively long focal length requires, well, length. You could look at some of the 40mm models that have been made over the years. No matching frame lines, of course, but some of those are close to being pancakes.

As to the 28mm Summaron being slow… that’s a big part of how it’s so compact. No free lunches. The 28mm Elmarit I mentioned is pretty small and gets you two extra stops of light.

The The MS optics lenses are all quite compact—see the links provided by frame-it. they tend to use lower element counts, so you may give up some optical correction for the more compact designs.

[Ecar]

1 hour ago, frame-it said:

https://www.japancamerahunter.com/2016/10/camera-geekery-ms-optics-apoqualia-g-28mm-f2/

https://www.japancamerahunter.com/2017/10/lens-test-ms-optics-historio-prot-40mm-6-3-mc/

https://www.japancamerahunter.com/2012/09/ms-optical-sonnetar-50mm-f1-1-test-pictures/

https://casualphotophile.com/2020/07/01/kobalux-wide-28mm-f-3-5-ltm-lens-review/

https://reddotcamera.net/leica-lenses/pancake/#1-voigtlander-color-skopar-35mm-f25

 

Add to these the earlier MS-Optics Perar lenses. There are a few of them, with various focal lengths from 17 to 35mm. These are triplets, not fast, but true pancakes. You'll need to look for them on eBay or in Japan, as they were made in short, small batches.

[frame-it]

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36 minutes ago, Ecar said:

Add to these the earlier MS-Optics Perar lenses. There are a few of them, with various focal lengths from 17 to 35mm. These are triplets, not fast, but true pancakes. You'll need to look for them on eBay or in Japan, as they were made in short, small batches.

yep, and once you enter the LTM realm, there are a LOT of pancake sized lenses

[Al Brown]

28mm summaron is the thinnest, most pancake M lens Leica ever built. It does not get more pancake than that in native M mount.

I can recommend the Old Delft Minor, a true character pancake lens. It is not too slow at f/3.5
There is also the super bargain 7Artisans 35mm f/5.6 pancake, literally a lens cap, available super cheaply but I have never tested it.
As an alternative, the pre-asph Summilux 35 or Steel Rim re-issue are really slim and you get a really fast lens.

[hirohhhh]

I understand I will have to trade something else for the compactness, and the least I'd want to trade off is the image quality. Slowness I can probably deal with it. Also, would focus patch work with these lenses? I know some old lenses are not compatible with newer M cameras and the patch doesn't move when focusing.

[FrozenInTime]

The are a good number for fast compact classic lenses : e.g. for 35mm you have the new/old Leica Summilux and its Voigtlander 1.4 Nokton copy. 

I was using a MS 35/1.4 Apoqualia yesterday with a film M. It fits easily into a winter jacket pocket. It is a bit of a character lens; quite rare, it would not be easy to find one.

I am waiting on the VC 35/1.5 releasing next week; it should have a modern rendering and about the same size as a 35 Summicron.

If you are using digital, f/2 or even f/2.8 options are numerous. The 28/5.6 lenses are way too slow for me.

 

[FrozenInTime]

9 minutes ago, hirohhhh said:

I understand I will have to trade something else for the compactness, and the least I'd want to trade off is the image quality. Slowness I can probably deal with it. Also, would focus patch work with these lenses? I know some old lenses are not compatible with newer M cameras and the patch doesn't move when focusing.

The vast majority of lenses will couple with the rangefinder. Exceptions would include the voigtlander snapshot ltm 25/4 and the early ultra wides

Another good small option would be the new Voigtlander 40/2.8 

Edited November 20, 2022 by FrozenInTime

[250swb]

The times the patch stops moving is when the camera can't focus as close as the lens. But within the focus range of each the patch should move if it's a coupled lens.

Edited November 20, 2022 by 250swb

[Ecar]

25 minutes ago, hirohhhh said:

I understand I will have to trade something else for the compactness, and the least I'd want to trade off is the image quality. Slowness I can probably deal with it. Also, would focus patch work with these lenses? I know some old lenses are not compatible with newer M cameras and the patch doesn't move when focusing.

All the lenses mentioned so far will focus through the RF, possibly subject to the caveats mentioned by @FrozenInTime and @250swb above. Depending on the lens, an LTM to M adapter would also be needed.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Ecar

[LocalHero1953]

If I just wanted compactness in the pocket but still with a decent aperture, I would go with a Summicron 50mm collapsible. I used one for years, not for pocketability but for slipping in a leather pouch in my briefcase.

However, I learned that compactness does not make a lens easy to carry in the pocket unless your jacket is made of heavy leather. The weight of a M alone is enough to make it uncomfortable and distorts the clothing.

From time to time I would carry the camera with this lens on a strap under a jacket.

Edited November 20, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[lct]

Elmar-M 50/2.8 collapsed

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[Pyrogallol]

You  don’t say if you are using digital or film?

If film, then a screw Leica 11 with any collapsible lens will be the smallest. Or if you can manage without the rangefinder then a Standard.

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Edited November 20, 2022 by Pyrogallol

[derleicaman]

There are tons of choices if you consider all of the 3rd party makers and LTM lenses over the past 75 years.

There are a bunch of good choices in Leica lenses in recent and current production. The 50/2.8 Coll. Elmar-M is an excellent choice. Also the 28/2.8 ASPH v1, and any version of the Summicron 35 M. The v2 35/1.4 Summilux is tiny as well. Same optically as the re-issue Steel Rim. These are all about as small as you can get.

You didn't mention what M you are using. If you are using an M10 Monochrom, the 28 Summaron is amazing on it. No need to worry about the lens being a 5.6 on it.

[Huss]

I use the Wtulens 17mm.  It is what can be considered a body cap lens.  I find pancakes too bulky.

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[derleicaman]

Forgot to add for a short tele, the 90/4 Macro Elmar-M collapsible is tiny as well, plus it is a stunning performer. Just picked one up a few weeks ago.

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[Huss]

4 hours ago, derleicaman said:

Forgot to add for a short tele, the 90/4 Macro Elmar-M collapsible is tiny as well, plus it is a stunning performer. Just picked one up a few weeks ago.

Just took this w that lens on an M3

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