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Do I want the 2022 M6, M-A or MP?


lencap

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Greetings!

Several years ago I sold my M-A and M7 and moved fully to digital bodies.  Now, after owning the Q, M9 and SL I find that I really miss the pure manual lens shooting experience, and the tactile feel of setting aperture and focus rings.  I also realize that although the digital Ms have wonderful photographic ability, the emphasis on technical excellence has lessened the emphasis on composition, at least for me.  So, I decided that to rekindle that enjoyment I'd like to return to a film M body and prime manual lenses.

The issues are:

  • I'm a lot older than when I first started shooting, so getting sharp focus on a rangefinder is more challenging than I thought.  That leads to wondering which focal length may be best.  I struggled with the Q's 28mm perspective, and never did get portraits to look as I hoped.  I've typically shot 50mm on my Leica Ms, but wonder if a 35 may be more forgiving?  Have you had to use optional diopters to get the sharp focus you need with the rangefinder system?
  • Years ago I bought the M-A as a "old school" approach to capturing images, relying upon the "Sunny 16" method to set the camera.  Unfortunately the results weren't always what I hoped, so I am inclined to have some light metering tools in body - tilting more toward the new M6 or MP.  Thoughts?
  • It's been a while since I shot film, and even longer since I developed it.  I expect to rely upon my local camera store experts to handle those aspects for me.  Do any of you regret moving back to film?
  • I don't anticipate scanning my photos, and I realize the technical limits of film, but I would like to print a few of my favorites.  I still struggle with the best print size - I tended to favor 13x20 as a maximum, but wonder if that size is commonly used today?
  • Finally, I shot a lot of Hasselblad B/W back in the day.  I still lover the square image size, along with a crop to 4:5.  Have any of you considered medium format film before deciding on the  35mm format?  Any regrets or second guessing?

Thanks for the help.

The "Old Guy"

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1. Since you're moving back to the M-system, you can try the different focal lengths to see what works for you; I really enjoy my 35mm 'lux.  I don't see the need for any diopters except when using tele-lenses like a 90mm or higher which I don't normally shoot with.  You can also try the higher magnification viewfinders like the 0.85x for longer focal lengths.

2. You can get a good pre-owned M7, 'old' M6 or new M6, the MP, or even a used M5(!).  The M7 might be the best for you as using aperture-priority is really nice.  If cost is no object, I would be inclined to pick up Huss' new M6 that he's offering.  :)

3. I'm currently enjoying shooting film and I have a good local developer that also scans for a great price.

4. There is no common print size; it depends on what you want to do with it.  Family 4x6/7x5 prints are fine.  Larger prints are suitable for framing.  Just my two cents.

5. Have no experience with medium format.

Cheers and have fun!

CJ

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Dear "lenscap"

I too am another "Old Guy", however have not sold cameras whenever I bought a new one.

My first Leica was a second-hand IIIf which I still use, then a new M2 as a graduation present to myself.

As the years went by I progressed through every model till the M6 which I quickly sold.  Finally an M7 à la carte.

Like you I needed dioptre correction on the later cameras, but with their better viewfinders, not with the earlier M2 M3 M4 and M5.

I think each of us has a natural optical angle of acceptance.  I have friends who take wonderful shot with wide angle lenses, but I have disposed of all lenses from 15mm - 28mm, the only 28 remaining being within the Tri-Elmar-M.

To answer your questions, my preferred combination is the M2 with the 8 element Summicron 1:2/35 supplemented with the Tele-Elmarit 1:2.8/90.

As to metering I prefer an external meter as I tend to shoot against the light or at least with strong side light.  Having said that, the M7 meter has always been spot on, but to be fair I also tend to bracket.  Secondly I use negative film which is more exposure tolerant; slide film in the Leicaflex.

Printing is A4 and if the shot stands up to months of scrutiny and is worth it I have a lab print A3 for framing.

Trusting this covers a few of your questions.

Hektor

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58 minutes ago, lencap said:

The issues are:

  • I'm a lot older than when I first started shooting, so getting sharp focus on a rangefinder is more challenging than I thought.  That leads to wondering which focal length may be best.  I struggled with the Q's 28mm perspective, and never did get portraits to look as I hoped.  I've typically shot 50mm on my Leica Ms, but wonder if a 35 may be more forgiving?  Have you had to use optional diopters to get the sharp focus you need with the rangefinder system?
  • Years ago I bought the M-A as a "old school" approach to capturing images, relying upon the "Sunny 16" method to set the camera.  Unfortunately the results weren't always what I hoped, so I am inclined to have some light metering tools in body - tilting more toward the new M6 or MP.  Thoughts?
  • It's been a while since I shot film, and even longer since I developed it.  I expect to rely upon my local camera store experts to handle those aspects for me.  Do any of you regret moving back to film?
  • I don't anticipate scanning my photos, and I realize the technical limits of film, but I would like to print a few of my favorites.  I still struggle with the best print size - I tended to favor 13x20 as a maximum, but wonder if that size is commonly used today?
  • Finally, I shot a lot of Hasselblad B/W back in the day.  I still lover the square image size, along with a crop to 4:5.  Have any of you considered medium format film before deciding on the  35mm format?  Any regrets or second guessing?

 

  • Get a diopter, suddenly everything will be clear!
  • You had the MA and the M7.  The perfect in-between would be an MP or new M6 - the vibe of the MA but not worrying about missing exposure,
  • No regrets at all, I bought an M10-R a few months ago (good deal, could not resist etc) but have not used it yet! Always shooting film.  If you do not have a local shop there are lots of places you can mail it to.  You can even develop B&W very easily by yourself with Cinestill DF96 monobath (one bottle does everything).
  • I print/sell to 24x36 inches from 35mm film.  Looks awesome as long I make sure that the image is up to that quality.
  • Also shoot medium format. Love it.  But neither are a replacement for each other.  35mm (obviously) is more compact, discrete, quicker to use, more shots per roll.  The ultimate theoretical quality is not the same for 35 vs mf, but use it to its strengths.  Use grain etc to its advantage.
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If you like a meter in the camera, I would get the newest M6.   I have a mint M4 anniversary body in black chrome and it looks and operates like it came out of the box yesterday so that removes any urge I have for a MA.  I love the black paint finish on the MP but am not sure that would make up for the slower rewind system vs the tilted knob on the M6.  And since I prefer the viewfinder on the M2 over any other Leica, I am not sure the paired frame lines will ever let me buy a new camera.

If I were getting one of the three you listed, it would be a black paint MP.  If you prefer another finish and you like metering in camera, either the MP or M6 depending on rewind  system and other esthetics.  Or you could look at a really really nice used classic and carry an incident meter like I do.

Finally, have you looked at TLR's for medium format?  I ask because I bought a Rollei two years ago and have only put one roll of film through it.  However, it is small and quiet and much lighter than a 500CM.  And I might sell it.

Edited by ktmrider2
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14 minutes ago, ktmrider2 said:

..And since I prefer the viewfinder on the M2 over any other Leica, I am not sure the paired frame lines will ever let me buy a new camera.

 

I've had the 75mm frame lines 'removed' from my M-A, MP, M7, M5.  I don't see the point of a 75mm lens (too close to 50) but would use a 90mm.  This means that when I use a 50mm lens, it only shows the 50mm frames.  Perfect.  Before it would show 50 and 75.

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Like anything, it's all personal taste.  For me?  If I wanted a meter I'd buy a black paint MP.  No meter?  A black chrome M-A.  But if you're just getting back into film and aren't sure you're going to stick with it, then save some $$$ and go for a nice used M2/M3/M4 or M6 if you want a meter. 

There's no wrong choice, they're all great in their own way.

Edited by logan2z
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1 hour ago, lencap said:

….

I struggled with the Q's 28mm perspective, and never did get portraits to look as I hoped.  I've typically shot 50mm on my Leica Ms, but wonder if a 35 may be more forgiving?  ……

  • Finally, I shot a lot of Hasselblad B/W back in the day.  I still lover the square image size, along with a crop to 4:5.  Have any of you considered medium format film before deciding on the  35mm format?  Any regrets or second guessing?

 

I think the square print is something special and for the last year, I have been seeking to crop to 1:1, where ever possible even with a Leica.

35 cropped 1:1 looks very much like a Hasselblad 80mm 6x6 view. 35/1.4 also feels similar to 80/2.8.( still have a 501cm but haven't taken it out of late )

When holding the camera vertically, taking the top two thirds out of 3:2 acts very much like having a shift lens, making for nicely aligned non-converging verticals.

A centre crop minimizes vignetting, corner coma and unsharpness when shooting wide open.

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1 hour ago, logan2z said:

Like anything, it's all personal taste.  For me?  If I wanted a meter I'd buy a black paint MP.  No meter?  A black chrome M-A.  But if you're just getting back into film and aren't sure you're going to stick with it, then save some $$$ and go for a nice used M2/M3/M4 or M6 if you want a meter. 

There's no wrong choice, they're all great in their own way.

Wise words here..... Don't get caught up in any Leica Hype and Dollars until you know what you want, ...how you shoot.... 

If you don't want a light meter, for Leica...take the MA. If you need a light meter to set your exposure, go with either the M6 or MP. But, you might also get back into film by finding a nice used Olympus OM-1 or a Canon AE-1....   two strong candidates and easily picked up for a fraction of a Leica. So bottom line....ask yourself your needs for we can't help you much with those

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An MP with the .72 viewfinder and a 1.25X diopter will give you an M3 sized field of view more or less and might help you see the focus patch better. 

I also love medium format.  If you enjoy Leicas, I think the Rolleiflex has a similar mechanical perfection vibe.  I love my 2.8F Rollei.  The 80mm Zeiss lens on that camera is great.  

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3 hours ago, FrozenInTime said:

I think the square print is something special and for the last year, I have been seeking to crop to 1:1, where ever possible even with a Leica.

35 cropped 1:1 looks very much like a Hasselblad 80mm 6x6 view. 35/1.4 also feels similar to 80/2.8.( still have a 501cm but haven't taken it out of late )

When holding the camera vertically, taking the top two thirds out of 3:2 acts very much like having a shift lens, making for nicely aligned non-converging verticals.

A centre crop minimizes vignetting, corner coma and unsharpness when shooting wide open.

I shot a Hasselblad with an 80mm for a while. It always felt more like a 50mm to me, more restrictive than a 35mm lens. Maybe it was me, I never looked up the actual equivalence though.

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Thanks for the comments, much appreciated.  I shot mostly Nikon for a very long time, ending with a F6 as my final film Nikon before moving to Nikon digital bodies and finding them disappointing.   I then turned to Leica with an M7 as my first camera.  It reminded me of my professional Nikon film bodies, but far lighter, flexible and fun.  I bought it because I was still shooting film, at least part time.  I was attracted to the aperture priority option while shooting, but I realized after owning it for a while that is wasn't used as often as I expected.  The M-A was an emotional decision.  I wanted "the last" classic Leica film camera and the two tone look was something I couldn't resist.  I found the winder a bit less convenient than I expected, but not a deal breaker.  Shortly afterward I bought the M9 and found that I was shooting film less and less.  The M-A really never got the workout I bought it for, and I regret selling it, especially at the depressed "who wants film?" price I sold it for years ago.  

The M6 reissue appeals to me because it has the same finder, as I understand it, as the M-A, which was very good.  Still, the advice to buy a Canon AE-1 or another less expensive film alternative does seem reasonable.  Truth be told digital is easier to use on a day to day basis.  My resentment with the new digital Leica cameras and lenses is that specs have become more important than capturing images.  That's really not a reason to return to film by itself, but the "joy of shooting" on the newer cameras, for me, is now about the "joy of specs".   And that's why I'm unsure about the right path to take.  I remember shooting film, using a professional darkroom at my local college, and making prints.  But I also remember streaking film because of poor technique, scratching negatives despite not realizing it at the time, and having to be very precise with all aspects of film.  As I've aged I wonder I'll soon grow tired of the amount of work required to get images that digital cameras do without fuss.

The other fly in the ointment, so to speak, is that I recently bought an iPhone 14 Pro.  I'm amazed with the capability of that camera, and I've only had it for a very short time.  The computational imaging that Apple uses, while it has faults, also has tremendous potential.  Images are far better than I expected, and frankly remarkably easy to integrate into the Apple ecosystem.  Images on the camera automatically store on iCloud, porting to Apple Photos/Movie is seamless, and I can also feed the Apple TV hardware to stream to my large screen 4K TV with ease for both video and stills.  

And that's why I'm asking for help.  Photography to me is composition, which to me still means traditional photography.  The tool that I favor remains the M platform.  Yet I must admit that the SL/Q combo was a very nice setup.  My main problem is that I've never mastered Lightroom/Photoshop and I don't enjoy spending endless hours in front of a screen trying to figure out "the best" image balance.  Film was a lot easier.  B/W required learning how to dodge/burn and print, but the options were fairly straight forward.  Not so with digital.  My images from the 70s are largely B/W and have many flaws - poor focus/development/printing - but still have EMOTION and CHARACTER.  That's what I miss and that's why I keep posting to this knowledgable forum.  It's far cheaper than visiting a psychologist, and the wide array of viewpoints really is helpful for me to consider.  

Thanks to all for the help.

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12 minutes ago, lencap said:

Thanks for the comments, much appreciated.  I shot mostly Nikon for a very long time, ending with a F6 as my final film Nikon before moving to Nikon digital bodies and finding them disappointing.   I then turned to Leica with an M7 as my first camera.  It reminded me of my professional Nikon film bodies, but far lighter, flexible and fun.  I bought it because I was still shooting film, at least part time.  I was attracted to the aperture priority option while shooting, but I realized after owning it for a while that is wasn't used as often as I expected.  The M-A was an emotional decision.  I wanted "the last" classic Leica film camera and the two tone look was something I couldn't resist.  I found the winder a bit less convenient than I expected, but not a deal breaker.  Shortly afterward I bought the M9 and found that I was shooting film less and less.  The M-A really never got the workout I bought it for, and I regret selling it, especially at the depressed "who wants film?" price I sold it for years ago.  

The M6 reissue appeals to me because it has the same finder, as I understand it, as the M-A, which was very good.  Still, the advice to buy a Canon AE-1 or another less expensive film alternative does seem reasonable.  Truth be told digital is easier to use on a day to day basis.  My resentment with the new digital Leica cameras and lenses is that specs have become more important than capturing images.  That's really not a reason to return to film by itself, but the "joy of shooting" on the newer cameras, for me, is now about the "joy of specs".   And that's why I'm unsure about the right path to take.  I remember shooting film, using a professional darkroom at my local college, and making prints.  But I also remember streaking film because of poor technique, scratching negatives despite not realizing it at the time, and having to be very precise with all aspects of film.  As I've aged I wonder I'll soon grow tired of the amount of work required to get images that digital cameras do without fuss.

The other fly in the ointment, so to speak, is that I recently bought an iPhone 14 Pro.  I'm amazed with the capability of that camera, and I've only had it for a very short time.  The computational imaging that Apple uses, while it has faults, also has tremendous potential.  Images are far better than I expected, and frankly remarkably easy to integrate into the Apple ecosystem.  Images on the camera automatically store on iCloud, porting to Apple Photos/Movie is seamless, and I can also feed the Apple TV hardware to stream to my large screen 4K TV with ease for both video and stills.  

And that's why I'm asking for help.  Photography to me is composition, which to me still means traditional photography.  The tool that I favor remains the M platform.  Yet I must admit that the SL/Q combo was a very nice setup.  My main problem is that I've never mastered Lightroom/Photoshop and I don't enjoy spending endless hours in front of a screen trying to figure out "the best" image balance.  Film was a lot easier.  B/W required learning how to dodge/burn and print, but the options were fairly straight forward.  Not so with digital.  My images from the 70s are largely B/W and have many flaws - poor focus/development/printing - but still have EMOTION and CHARACTER.  That's what I miss and that's why I keep posting to this knowledgable forum.  It's far cheaper than visiting a psychologist, and the wide array of viewpoints really is helpful for me to consider.  

Thanks to all for the help.

Nice read.  I would just 'jump in' and get a film Leica body and start shooting - doesn't really matter what you get at this point except for the viewfinder.  Recent film processing/developing and scanning labs make it easy and relatively inexpensive.  I too tired of the endless amount of time I used to spend hunched over PS and a large monitor where I would spend more time looking at images on a computer screen than actually taking pictures - life is too short.

I now have three film bodies and shoot color & B/W and have a local lab that develops and scans for me - very easy and I'm having fun!

Good luck!

 

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This will be long...

I have gone through a similar experience very recently so here are my thoughts:  First, if you want a new film Leica, the M6 would be my suggestion.  If you want an old film Leica, an M6 would be my suggestion! ;) 

BUT, having done exactly that - dragged my old, 1984 M6 out of retirement to re-enter film after 20 years of digital, I re-retired it (mostly) and bought a Bronica SQAi 6x6 for film.  I never used medium format back in my film days so this was a new experience for me.  I have thoroughly enjoyed using the Bronica, even more than I enjoy shooting with the M6.  One of the major "attributes" of the 6x6 for me is that there are only 12 shots on a roll of 120 film.  Yes, for me that's an advantage!  I have found that I get maybe two "keepers" per roll of film BUT it doesn't seem to matter how many exposures there are on a roll,  IOW, that's two keepers per roll of 12, per role of 24, or per roll of 36.  In the digital realm it's probably closer to two per 50 or 60 shots!  As is well known, most of us shoot a lot of digital pics because we CAN, spending much less time actually looking for/setting up a 'good' photograph.  Admittedly, that's not digital's fault, it's just a function of convenience/ laziness.  But for me at least, it ends up in more work than film simply because there are so many more pics.

Digitally I often end up with a stupid number of photos to review...to the point on occasion that I just gave up looking through them.  I have 3400 pics I took in one trip 6 years ago that I got maybe into the first 100 and just said, "Screw THIS!"  Those pics are still on the memory cards.  That's even worse than the old shoeboxes full of photos or stack of slide trays that every household used to have!  At least there were actual photographs in the boxes/trays!

Darkroom or scanning?  Of course, much of this is personal preference.  It depends on the "purpose."  If it is to produce a print for display, I'd opt for darkroom.  I do not see the point in shooting film, scanning it and then inkjet-printing; it's much easier/quicker to use a digital camera.  OTOH, I will admit that the act of shooting on film makes me slow down/consider what I'm doing.  And in that regard, the medium format camera does that even better than my M6.  And, of course 6x6 produces hugely better images than 35mm, regardless of how the final image is produced - whether scan or darkroom.  

 My current (black and white only) film "photography outfit" is the Bronica with the standard 80mm (around 45mm equivalent in 35mm format).  I carry/use an iPhone with a light meter app and also use it for color pics or videos. I have an AE prism finder for the Bronica which will provide exposure info but I prefer the waist-level finder when using the camera, which does not provide that.

Re the iPhone for pics:  I am not a professional photog but I occasionally sell some images at local shops and my best selling image was taken with my iPhone 11 and converted to B&W in Apple Photos.  It's a "good" photo because I was in the right place at the right time for the light and it would have been just as good had I shot it with a Vest Pocket Kodak!.

As a final comment - There is, of course, no reason at all that I couldn't take my digital M and operate it exactly the same way as I'm required to operate the Bronica - set the ISO to a hard number, turn off the display completely (no chimping), and set the F stop/shutter speed manually for each photo.  But I've found that it's hard to actually do that, at least for an extended period because I still have an essentially unlimited number of shots available.  Maybe more discipline as opposed to a different camera is the real answer.  🤔

Good luck with whatever you decide. 🧐

 

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10 hours ago, lencap said:

I really miss the pure manual lens shooting experience

I thought you had pure manual lens shooting experience with M9.

Anyway, all you actually have to decide is meter or no meter (according to your thoughts I suggest the former) and pick a film body. I advise you try before you buy into that true purist experience of film and see if this works for you. Many shops rent a film Leica, at least here in EU.

Also, there is no "best print size". Whatever works for you.

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