Is the Leica M35 APO too good for a Leica MD (240) 24 MP ?

[Kim Dahl]

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I am 35mm fan and eventually I will upgrade to M11 or similar later. 
But will I be able to see a significant difference between my M35 (new model) and an Leica M35 APO on a Leica M 24 MP ? At aperture f2 ?

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[matted]

No such thing as "too good" when it comes to lenses IMHO. I have not shot with the 35 APO-Summicron, but I can see a difference between my 50 APO-Summicron and 50 Summarit (with both lenses wide open and both at f2.5) on my M9, which is "only" 18 MP. "Significant" is a strong word, however... I will say it will assuredly be "different" wide open, but will it be "better"? Only you can decide that.

[fotomas]

I would guess no. Just made a comparison of several macro-lenses (unfortunately no APO 35 was around) with my M 240 and a Nikon D850 (45 MP).
The differences of the lenses was clear to see with the M 240. In the end the M 240 looked better then the D850 (but we couldn't interchange the lenses between the cameras). Guess that was due to the lens, but I never got the feeling 24 MP might be not enough. I would say megapixels are highly overrated. 24 MP are perfect for me.

[01af]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Kim Dahl:

... between my M35 (new model) and an Leica M35 APO ...?

I am not aware of an 'M35' lens ... or an 'M35 APO'. Please don't make up your own names for lenses that already have a name.

[Jeff S]

Best way to know is to demo, if at all possible, so that the results reflect your own shooting and editing workflow and output requirements, print or screen.  
 

In principle, improving camera or lens resolution improves overall system resolution. Other characteristics/attributes depend on the specific gear and, as noted, user skills and techniques.  
 

If you haven’t read it already, the Appendix at the end of this article by Roger Cicala is relevant…

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/

Jeff

[darylgo]

5 hours ago, 01af said:

I am not aware of an 'M35' lens ... or an 'M35 APO'. Please don't make up your own names for lenses that already have a name.

Ahh, come-on, go easy on this one.   Half the fun of reading forum posts is trying to decipher the myriad of designations for Leica equipment.  SR = steel rim, this one had me baffled for a few moments.  Frankly, I am so confused with ver. x of lens xx, does a mount change without optics change require a new version?

@Kim Dahl I can see a clear difference in imaging with my 50 Apo vs. any other Leica 50 with the M240, so generalizing to the 35 apo I would say yes, it would be significantly different.  Leica Miami did a youtube video on the 35 Apo M:  https://youtu.be/dytLb7VrhU0 

 

[a.noctilux]

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☢️

same as "is newclear plant too good" or "...too bad"

 

...

so individual !

[Kim Dahl]

I've been wanting to try it for a long time.  It is now ordered.  When it arrives, I'll make some test pictures - then I'll write back.  But if anyone has already tested, please let me know.  Then I can use the waiting time in a god Way.  I'm looking forward to it coming.

[RexGig0]

Well, which “M35?” The best that I can find indicates that the MTF chart for the APO Summicron-M 35mm ASPH certainly looks “better” than the MTF chart for the current-version Summicron-M 35mm ASPH. Of course, if one prefers something about the character, or visual signature, of an older lens, the newer lens might seem “too modern.”

I remember a time when 24MP was amazingly high resolution. My best guess is that these two lenses would make very different images, on a 24MP camera, simply because the APO version is so much better-corrected, optically. Of course, “better-corrected” lenses can be seen, by some, as “too clinical,” or “too modern.” It will be some time before I can afford to add/borrow/rent an APO Summicron-M 35mm ASPH, and also rent or borrow a Summicron-M 35mm ASPH,  to try on my M10 and/or M Type 246 24MP cameras.

The paid subscription site that I trust for testing lenses, under real-world field conditions, has yet to test an APO Summicron-M ASPH. 

What I did do, when using DSLR systems, was to upgrade lenses before I upgraded to higher-MP cameras. Even a 12MP Nikon D700 or 20MP Nikon D5 full-35mm-frame camera would show a very noticeable difference, when I added something like a Zeiss 135mm f/2 APO Sonnar, a Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 Otus, or a Nikkor AF-S 24mm f/4E. This confirmed what my mentors and instructors had told me, about upgrading lenses, first, before upgrading cameras. 

This post is not meant to give advice, so much as to share thoughts. I am not any kind of expert, and know more about SLR lenses than M-mount lenses.

[RexGig0]

18 minutes ago, Kim Dahl said:

I've been wanting to try it for a long time.  It is now ordered.  When it arrives, I'll make some test pictures - then I'll write back.  But if anyone has already tested, please let me know.  Then I can use the waiting time in a god Way.  I'm looking forward to it coming.

Presuming that you ordered the 35mm APO, I hope that the waiting time passes quickly, and that you enjoy your lens!

[tightsqueez]

Last week I rented the 35mm Summicron-M APO and the M10M was my primary camera during use. 
 

I’ve used many various 35mm M mounts over the last twenty plus years so I know my lenses; FLE, Pre-FLE, Biogons, 35 Cron ASPH, etc. 
 

Anyways… the 35 APO is good, that is for sure but the images don’t pop like the 50 APO does. It’s probably a matter of focal length. Compared to my only 35mm lens, the 35 Cron IV, I was surprised how well the old lens stood up. f2.0 to f2.8 there was really no contest, except I really did prefer the way the old Cron rendered the background. At f5.6 and up, you can’t tell the difference except for the remaining 5% deep into the far corners. 

The close focus feature is nice to have but it’s just awkward using the rear screen or external EVF. And close focused images with a 35mm just look weird… it must be the distortion. A close focus 50 in the future or one of the 75’s would fit the bill better. 
 

Would you notice a difference with the APO over the others at f2.0? That’s up to you. What is significant when considering a “good” lens? I’ve read all the talk about this APO lens over the last year but none of it carried as much as trying the lens myself. And to be honest, I now couldn’t be happier with I already shoot with… 
 
I’ll eventually get one but after renting one I’m not in a hurry. 
 

 

[Kim Dahl]

I have now had 35 APO for about a month.  I saw it for sale and bought it with a quick decision.  I have no regrets.  I also have the latest 35 f2 / 11 blades.  
At f2 to f4/(f5,6) it is better.  On 5.6 it is not very visible.  On mtf I can see there is a difference but in the real world it is very little.  But at f2, f2.8 and f4 they are two completely different lenses.  So now I use it at f2 as much as I can.  My selection is not a scientific statement and I must say I have used it on 24 M.P.  The Leica M-D difference is not more with 60 M.P. 

[darylgo]

12 hours ago, Kim Dahl said:

I have now had 35 APO for about a month.  I saw it for sale and bought it with a quick decision.  I have no regrets.  I also have the latest 35 f2 / 11 blades.  
At f2 to f4/(f5,6) it is better.  On 5.6 it is not very visible.  On mtf I can see there is a difference but in the real world it is very little.  But at f2, f2.8 and f4 they are two completely different lenses.  So now I use it at f2 as much as I can.  My selection is not a scientific statement and I must say I have used it on 24 M.P.  The Leica M-D difference is not more with 60 M.P. 

Enjoy your new lens.  F5.6 is the great equalizer amongst lenses but like you I want the isolation of wide open shooting and that’s where Leica lens choices excel, many great 35’s to choose from, pick your rendering. 

[jaapv]

On 11/14/2022 at 9:34 PM, Kim Dahl said:

I am 35mm fan and eventually I will upgrade to M11 or similar later. 
But will I be able to see a significant difference between my M35 (new model) and an Leica M35 APO on a Leica M 24 MP ? At aperture f2 ?

Yes. On your (hypothetical)  M8 as well. Or any other camera that it will fit on.

But then, it does depend on your interpretation of the word significant.

[Kim Dahl]

10 hours ago, jaapv said:

Yes. On your (hypothetical)  M8 as well. Or any other camera that it will fit on.

But then, it does depend on your interpretation of the word significant.

Yes, you are right. I got a 35 APO and have used it for a month on my M-D (240 24 MP) and there is a difference between my "old" 35 and the new 35 APO.  But only between f2-4/5.6 is there a visible difference.  But I use my M-D much more now.  Because I use f2 for indoor photography.  Then I can lower the ISO and get a cleaner image.  APO is highly addictive.  But I think it will be even better on the 60 MP M11?

[a.noctilux]

5 minutes ago, Kim Dahl said:

I think it will be even better on the 60 MP M11

Please explain how a lens can be better with more pixels.

It is a question or supposition ?

[jaapv]

That is easily explainable. An image and its quality is a result of the lens and the sensor. One cannot do without the other. Take a sensor like the M11:  Better edge contrast because of higher resolution (“sharpness”) better dynamic range thus more subtle tonal transitions. Effects one would ascribe to the lens if one were thinking less holistically. 

[pippy]

1 hour ago, Kim Dahl said:

...I got a 35 APO and have used it for a month on my M-D (240 24 MP)...

Just a tiny point, Kim, and I hope you don't mind my mentioning it but the model designation for the M-D is Typ-262.

Philip.

Edited December 25, 2022 by pippy

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[Lelmer]

11 hours ago, Kim Dahl said:

Yes, you are right. I got a 35 APO and have used it for a month on my M-D (240 24 MP) and there is a difference between my "old" 35 and the new 35 APO.  But only between f2-4/5.6 is there a visible difference.  But I use my M-D much more now.  Because I use f2 for indoor photography.  Then I can lower the ISO and get a cleaner image.  APO is highly addictive.  But I think it will be even better on the 60 MP M11?

You have a great camera and a great lens...just enjoy 🙂

[Kim Dahl]

13 hours ago, pippy said:

Just a tiny point, Kim, and I hope you don't mind my mentioning it but the model designation for the M-D is Typ-262.

Philip.

That's perfectly fine.  And that's absolutely right - Typ-262 - I actually knew that, but had forgotten - is the sensor the same as in 240?  I think it is.  Or are there small changes?