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M11 dynamic range / image artifacts


plakak

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Hi!

Got a question about my M11 I just bought. Previously I was using GFX 50SII so I might be off about dynamic range, but I read across the Internet that M11 has amazing dynamic range... I just tested my M11 with Voigtlander 21mm 3.5f Skopar (newest version) and in Lightroom the file seems quite broken. There is green cast on the image, a lot of color onoise, the post-crop vignette has a lot of bending and all in all this file looks like it gave up along the way. Do I expect to much after switching back from medium format to full frame? Is this because of the lens or what? Its ISO 800. I can provide original RAW. 

Thanks in advance!

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Welcome to the forum.

The histogram is all to the left, which is to be expected given the subject, but you’ve added 4 stops to the exposure to get this. 

This must mean that the shot is very under exposed. 

Try a less challenging subject matter. I don’t think this is going to demonstrate the dynamic range you’re looking for. 

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Thank you! I'm in my first 12h with the M11 and Leica in general. I did shoot similar shot with GFX and had much better results (don't have any 1:1 comparison thought, I will try tomorrow to get exactly the same framing). But all in all it seems GFX has quite a big edge in dynamic range in the range of up to -4 stops based on my tests. Or the RAF files hold themselves better.

To be clear, I want to switch system to Leica  - I can't handle the weight of GFX and its lenses. I assumed M11 won't be as good as medium format, but based on the reviews I hoped it would handle dynamic range a bit better. Tomorrow I have full day for tests outdoor so I hope it will win me back :) Also apart from Voigtlander I have currently I should get 75mm APO in a few days, this might also convince me :) 

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Yea I agree. Seems this is a “test” shot and not a real picture. Just shoot the picture and stop poking the camera is my advice. 
 

This shot I took with my 10R. It’s iso100 because the lightbulb is shining right into the sensor. I think I was at f4. If anything I had to bring down the brightness to see the filaments. 


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Even someone who has no clue and leaves everything on auto couldn’t underexpose this picture. 

That’s not a fake vignette either. 

When you see people underexposing something by 5 stops and bringing it back on YouTube is nonsense and not real world. If you’re underexposing your shots by 4 and 5 stops you’re doing something wrong. I get 1 stop, MAYBE 2? 

If you know how to take a picture you’ll never underexpose anything by 4 or 5 stops. 

Since most digital cameras are ISO invariant  then it’s even unnecessary. Just crank up the ISO. A realistic test would be, hey guys. I was here at a club and I had to take this shot at ISO12800 or (god forbid ISO25,000 or some insane number) because it was so dark and I’m having issues. 

That’s a more realistic scenario. 

Edited by Chimichurri
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Ok guys, you are right. I probably overdone the test making it too dark. I checked my previous test shots I did and it seems I had only 2 steps to compensate instead of 4. I did the shot with GFX 50SII (right) matching settings and it seems pretty much the same without the green cast. The details are better on GFX but it's probably due to the lens.

Maybe I'm trying to convince myself the price of M11 is not justify and it 😅 My wallet does feel the lightest it's been in a long time :) 

Sorry for being overdramatic :D 

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2 hours ago, plakak said:

I did the shot with GFX 50SII (right) matching settings and it seems pretty much the same without the green cast.

You're comparing 44x33mm 50MP sensor to a 36x24mm 60MP sensor.
Leica's *longer* side fits into the Fuji's *shorter* side.

Did you somehow expect a lower noise floor from a smaller, higher density sensor?

Edited by orcinus
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6 hours ago, orcinus said:

You're comparing 44x33mm 50MP sensor to a 36x24mm 60MP sensor.
Leica's *longer* side fits into the Fuji's *shorter* side.

Did you somehow expect a lower noise floor from a smaller, higher density sensor?

Because of M11's dual conversion gain (not available on older GFX 50SII sensor), the PDR difference at ISO 800 is less than half a stop (link).

 

Edited by SrMi
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17 hours ago, plakak said:

Ok guys, you are right. I probably overdone the test making it too dark. I checked my previous test shots I did and it seems I had only 2 steps to compensate instead of 4. I did the shot with GFX 50SII (right) matching settings and it seems pretty much the same without the green cast. The details are better on GFX but it's probably due to the lens.

Maybe I'm trying to convince myself the price of M11 is not justify and it 😅 My wallet does feel the lightest it's been in a long time :) 

Sorry for being overdramatic :D 

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Maybe just go out and try to take a good picture. 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

If you have to lament the cost of a Leica M then you bought something you couldn’t afford. It’s just a camera. It’s not magic. It’s just a digital camera. 

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Medium format sensor keep more color information at all iso, but M11 it actually quite good.

Try the same test at 64 ISO and you get mode DR on the M11.

It is always good to lean where the camera shines before running with the hair on fire. Every camera has pro and cons.

The M11 is best expose correctly  go 1/2 stop over. Noise can start to show if you push shadows 2 stops.

I would suggest to be realistic and lower expectation, it is just a tool that works very well, but there is no magic here. It is probably the same for the Fuji.

Pushing exposure multiple stops and opening shadows, shadows that didn't get any light, is a recipe for noise results.

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On 11/6/2022 at 4:53 PM, Photoworks said:

The M11 is best expose correctly  go 1/2 stop over. Noise can start to show if you push shadows 2 stops.

I know that many of us, myself included, use Lightroom a lot. Not using Lightroom is a game changer to gain greater flexibility to push exposure and/or shoot at high ISO:

Without further ado, quick comparison with DXO PhotoLab 6 (unfortunately no explicit support for the 75mm Noctilux I used - supported lenses work even better). PhotoLab can be used in a Lightroom workflow as a pre-processor (DNG in, DNG out) to only take care of noise reduction (on autopilot) - so you don't have to change your Lightroom workflow (presets etc.) otherwise.


M11 at ISO 32000 (32k, not a typo). You decide ... (white balance/color profile seems to be different out of the box; I didn't try to match any settings; Left: LR; Right: DXO). Click on images to enlarge 1:1 for full appreciation of differences.

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Edited by mzbe
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