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M10 vs M10-R dynamic range


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42 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

If you just figured this out a week ago, there are countless resources on digital processing that would likely unveil many other editing tools and actions that could improve your pics and prints.  A lot more practical than looking at dynamic range charts.

.....all of which are meaningless compared to the REAL thing that makes for better images.  The choice of hardware and software isn't the answer.  As I see it, the REAL reason can be found with people expressing thoughts similar to this:

https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/notcamera.htm

Read the whole write-up from beginning to end, until you understand what Ken is really trying to say.....   that you can't "buy your way into being best".  You have to learn/earn your way into that - whether its being a race car driver, a photographer, or just about anything else nowadays.  

 

Chances are that someone in this forum using perhaps a Leica M4 through M8 will not improve their photos by purchasing an upcoming M12.  As I see it, better photographs come from better understanding of what makes a better photograph, and it's all in the photographer's brain and eyes as he or she composes the image to be taken.  Everyone really talented had the ability to capture the image they wanted, and then present it to the world showing their vision allowing others to see what they saw.  I have no expectations of ever reaching "the top", but the more I learn, the better I get.  

Or, to put it more bluntly, this being the Leica Forum, it doesn't really matter which Leica you use, from the M3 (or earlier) up to the M11 (or newer), it is YOU who will make better and more powerful photographs, not your choice of which model Leica to use.

......which isn't to say that newer models of a Leica might make it easier to capture a better image, but that's not the same thing.

 

 

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1 minute ago, MikeMyers said:

.....all of which are meaningless compared to the REAL thing that makes for better images.  The choice of hardware and software isn't the answer.  As I see it, the REAL reason can be found with people expressing thoughts similar to this:

https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/notcamera.htm

Read the whole write-up from beginning to end, until you understand what Ken is really trying to say.....   that you can't "buy your way into being best".  You have to learn your way into that - whether its being a race car driver, a photographer, or just about anything else nowadays.  

 

Chances are that someone in this forum using perhaps a Leica M4 through M8 will not improve their photos by purchasing an upcoming M12.  As I see it, better photographs come from better understanding of what makes a better photograph, and it's all in the photographer's brain and eyes as he or she composes the image to be taken.  Everyone really talented had the ability to capture the image they wanted, and then present it to the world showing their vision allowing others to see what they saw.  I have no expectations of ever reaching "the top", but the more I learn, the better I get.  

Or, to put it more bluntly, this being the Leica Forum, it doesn't really matter which Leica you use, from the M3 (or earlier) up to the M11 (or newer), it is YOU who will make better and more powerful photographs, not your choice of which model Leica to use.

......which isn't to say that newer models of a Leica might make it easier to capture a better image, but that's not the same thing.

 

 

That’s another topic, one that I’ve expressed views on ad nauseam, and long before you here on the forum. Anyone can learn tools and techniques (even if decades late to the game); it’s knowing when, where and to what degree to apply those techniques that matters most. In other words, a good eye and good judgment and decision making is key…to every aspect of photography.
 

There are far, far, far better resources than Ken Rockwell. Please. 

Jeff

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1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

There are far, far, far better resources than Ken Rockwell. Please. 

Sorry.  I've known of Ken Rockwell for as long as I can remember, and I think he explains things very clearly (maybe too much so?).  

I never joined this forum until I bought my M8.2; I guess I missed a lot.

Anyway, perhaps I can suggest this link, after which I'll go back to mostly reading, not posting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwk3YFknyNA

I am much more interested in this type of information, more so than whether one model camera is shinier than another, or technical comparisons.  I think I'm in the minority.  And yep, I've probably missed the overwhelming majority of what you've posted.  

The person here I've probably learned the most from is @jaapv - or maybe it's that the things he writes get stored away in my brain for future reference the best and I keep going back to them.

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36 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Sorry.  I've known of Ken Rockwell for as long as I can remember, and I think he explains things very clearly (maybe too much so?).  

I never joined this forum until I bought my M8.2; I guess I missed a lot.

Anyway, perhaps I can suggest this link, after which I'll go back to mostly reading, not posting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwk3YFknyNA

I am much more interested in this type of information, more so than whether one model camera is shinier than another, or technical comparisons.  I think I'm in the minority.  And yep, I've probably missed the overwhelming majority of what you've posted.  

The person here I've probably learned the most from is @jaapv - or maybe it's that the things he writes get stored away in my brain for future reference the best and I keep going back to them.

Well, we agree on the principle, if not the resource.  Some work wonders with meager tools; others produce mediocre results with the latest and greatest.  As always.  
 

Jeff

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I think it's more nuanced than that... some photos are much better than others, even if the photographer is the same person.

(Also IMHO a thread titled M10 vs M10R Dynamic Range is actually kinda all about the graphs and the figures and not really anything about picture editing, soul, story telling, Fibonacci sequences or whatever metric one might appoint to determine the artistic merit of a photo. Those things are more important than DR but also separate from DR or EL)

Anyway I didn't own an M10R when this thread started. Now I do. The 10R files are categorically better than the M10's, by what I'd personally consider a fraction (OMMV).

Whether I like my 10R pictures more than my M10's remains to be seen... spoiler alert, I doubt very much which camera I'm using will really influence how much I like the picture

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42 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

I think it's more nuanced than that... some photos are much better than others, even if the photographer is the same person.

 

Of course, but also another topic. Even the ‘best’ photographers (or any artists really) produce relatively few ‘audience worthy’ works in a year, or maybe in a lifetime. And even then, others will disagree on which works those are.

This is primarily a gear oriented forum, and this is quintessentially a gear/technically oriented topic, so there’s really no natural place for a discussion like this, except maybe in the Bar, or just an OT digression once in a while like this one.  

But to bring this somewhat back on topic, I replaced my M10 with an M10-R, mostly to complement my M10 Monochrom as a working pair (although never simultaneously). Dynamic range wasn’t a purchase criterion for me. My print viewers never know or care what gear was used, if the pic and print are worthy, film/silver print or digital. Oops, OT again.

Jeff
 

 

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1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

Of course, but also another topic. Even the ‘best’ photographers (or any artists really) produce relatively few ‘audience worthy’ works in a year, or maybe in a lifetime. And even then, others will disagree on which works those are.

This is primarily a gear oriented forum, and this is quintessentially a gear/technically oriented topic, so there’s really no natural place for a discussion like this, except maybe in the Bar, or just an OT digression once in a while like this one.  

But to bring this somewhat back on topic, I replaced my M10 with an M10-R, mostly to complement my M10 Monochrom as a working pair (although never simultaneously). Dynamic range wasn’t a purchase criterion for me. My print viewers never know or care what gear was used, if the pic and print are worthy, film/silver print or digital. Oops, OT again.

Jeff
 

 

The OP asked something very specific. The answer is a very simple yes. You can recover highlights with much more ease on the M10R. 

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57 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Of course, but also another topic. Even the ‘best’ photographers (or any artists really) produce relatively few ‘audience worthy’ works in a year, or maybe in a lifetime. And even then, others will disagree on which works those are.

This is primarily a gear oriented forum, and this is quintessentially a gear/technically oriented topic, so there’s really no natural place for a discussion like this, except maybe in the Bar, or just an OT digression once in a while like this one.  

But to bring this somewhat back on topic, I replaced my M10 with an M10-R, mostly to complement my M10 Monochrom as a working pair (although never simultaneously). Dynamic range wasn’t a purchase criterion for me. My print viewers never know or care what gear was used, if the pic and print are worthy, film/silver print or digital. Oops, OT again.

Jeff
 

 

Agree with all of that Jeff.

And I largely picked up the R purely out of opportunistic GAS (I was kicking around the idea of getting one, well because, then suddenly there’s a guy on my doorstep selling one) and the main attraction was actually being able to use a real ISO100 and the high contrast M10 tone curve does annoy me a little (only a little mind)

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17 minutes ago, Demigorgan said:

The OP asked something very specific. The answer is a very simple yes. You can recover highlights with much more ease on the M10R. 

I agree with several other more nuanced posts… exposure latitude vs dynamic range (term used by OP), marginal difference (I’ve owned both), and mostly a user issue in any case. One has to mind highlights much more with a Monochrom, but years with slide film was a good teacher for me.

Jeff

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On 11/21/2022 at 1:31 PM, MikeMyers said:

Anyway, perhaps I can suggest this link, after which I'll go back to mostly reading, not posting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwk3YFknyNA

I am much more interested in this type of information, more so than whether one model camera is shinier than another, or technical comparisons.  

And yet, a few days later, we get this thread…


Back to technical comparisons and camera talk.

And you wonder why some here have wondered if you’re just trolling.

Jeff

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whatever the camera, if you clip data it's gone forever.

The M10-R has greater exposure latitude so you can indeed move the data around more than the M10, but the M10 isn't as bad as they say

Putting a value on how much more latitude the R enjoys over the 10 is hard... my hunch would be it rather depends on the colour of the thing you wish to recover... red for example is often less tolerant to recovery than say white.

AFAIK Leica don't give us a RAW histogram (or even a Jpeg RGB one) so a bit of experience with any given camera and it's metering system should make highlight blow out an occasional faux pas rather than an incessant problem 

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8 hours ago, hammyusr said:

Yes, this was answered on my second one. He exposed it correctly (using the pull setting of ISO100). It wasn’t a mistake.

You could carry ND filters and all that, but the M10R gives you more leeway without the need for any of that

If we read the whole thread… we see that

1. The R doesn’t have a stop more DR than the M10 at base ISO

2. The M10 can recover more than 1/2 stop with exposure latitude (provided one uses ISO200 not 100)

On 11/12/2022 at 4:49 PM, Adam Bonn said:

I don't doubt for a nano-second that the M10R has more exposure latitude (and a touch more DR) than the regular M10.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

But really IMHO the M10 isn't the highlight crapshoot that some places on the internet would have you believe....

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Is that really such a poor and unusable amount of exposure latitude? I tentatively suggest not....

(yes obviously I made a poor exposure choice to begin with, but all quite recoverable IMO...)

 

On 11/12/2022 at 5:13 PM, MikeMyers said:

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

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On 11/4/2022 at 11:44 PM, Adam Bonn said:

Yes. This is called dual gain technology. Links in my post above 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Fuji (amongst others) were doing this 6 years ago

(edit, sorry wrong chat 🙄

How accurate are these charts? According to this chart the x-pro3 has triple gain

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1 hour ago, Jacobjuul said:

How accurate are these charts? According to this chart the x-pro3 has triple gain

You'd have to reach out to the folks behind the website for that answer, but intuitively it probably works OK as a comparative tool

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38 minutes ago, hammyusr said:

Nobody is saying the M10 is bad. Just the 10R is better. That’s all there is to it. It’s demonstrably better. end of story really.  No need for charts and graphs. 

Indeed.. In many posts before yours. 

And Jono's comments aren't that complimentary about the m10, ugly highlights etc

I own both m10 and m10r so I'm free to draw my own real world conclusions based on my own photos

And yes the R is better. It has tangibly more exposure latitude than the 10 and slightly more DR

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On 11/13/2022 at 1:17 PM, Jeff S said:

Mine covers full replacement cost of each item, which I establish up front, subject to up to 50% appreciation without update required. No deductible, worldwide, all circumstances outside warranty, including my own stupidity.

Ditto

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Yes this information has been in the public domain and on this forum for about as long as the R has been available to purchase. 

Nothing new to see here 

Some folks confuse DR and exposure latitude (even some popular reviewers) 

DR is great (it sells cameras, gives reviewers stuff to talk about and graph producers things to measure) but EL can be of great benefit 

But nothing trumps properly exposing the scene in context of what the camera offers you in terms of light gathering. 

Or cameras don't clip highlights, camera users do

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Auto or manual is irrelevant. 

It's all the same light meter in the camera. (unless one uses an external tool or sunny 16 etc) 

The skill is to learn to use it, to know when to use full manual or to use auto and the ev wheel, but mostly to understand how the camera will meter the scene and whether or not to override its exposure choices 

This skill works in conjunction with understanding how the RAW software one uses responds to edits and the exposure latitude of the camera 

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