M10 vs M10-R dynamic range

[Jeff S]

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15 minutes ago, Chimichurri said:

Well yes. Monochrome sensors will always be noise free for all practical purposes. Personally I don’t care about noise.

I own the M9M and M10M; the latter performs much better with respect to high ISO. But that’s largely academic for me, as I rarely shoot at high ISO anyway, and my prints are small-ish.  For me, the Monochrom is enjoyable for other reasons.

In my b/w film days, I also didn’t mind grain from my 35mm film format pics and similarly smallish prints.  Others, however, seem obsessed by the grain/noise issue, hence my above comments and link.

Jeff

[Adam Bonn]

47 minutes ago, Chimichurri said:

What is relevant to this conversation

The answer to the OP is that dynamic range and exposure latitude are not the same thing.

This means that two cameras that have similar DR can respond very differently to how their RAW data is manipulated in post.

digital noise is often associated with exposure choices (we shoot at say 6400, underexpose, push the file 1 stop and it’s very noisy. If we shoot at 12800 and saturate the pixels the noise is less)

also cameras have various “tricks” (sic) to deal with noise, from embedding tags in the RAW to tell the RAW app to perform NR duties to amplifying RGB (yes Jeff not on monochrome cameras) channels by different amounts

The “trick” with dual gain is to understand that one might get more DR at (say) iso800 than 600 and to select ISO wisely. 
 

ultimately 

3 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

'You' get a new camera, you learn to get the best from it

 

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[Adam Bonn]

Not sure this is so helpful..... and the only M10R DNGs I have are limited to the ones available from DPR (here and here) and photographyblog (here) - I've haven't read the small print but I'm fairly sure that both these sites do not want users reproducing their copyrighted work and sharing it elsewhere. So I wont.

However... both these sites also have M10 DNG samples (certainly DPR does) so I think one could get at least some semblance of the performance of the RAW files by downloading these samples and playing around with them.

The trouble with the (perfectly logical to ask) question how much highlight recovery is there? Is that the answer for every camera is the same:

None.

If it's clipped it's gone. Sure RAW apps can guess clipped data by examining non-clipped pixels from the surrounding areas and cross-assigning the values, but that's not really recovery more touch up and is rather at the mercy of what's clipped.... white signage or something with many colours.

So It IMO becomes a question of how much can I move the RAW data around in post

Here's a quick and dirty M10 demonstration.

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As you can see from the histogram nothing's really clipped (ISO200 0EV 1/350 F5.6 in case you care)

Next I hit 'Auto' in the tone section (and FWIW I never normally do that... but maybe I should 😅)

 

 

Now we see a lot more data in the both the bright areas and the shadow areas ('auto' has a bit over lifted the shadows for my personal tastes and I'd have probably used more + white too. But I wanted to show this with just an automated setting... Personally I feel that when we show images on the forum that relate to the RAW data we shouldn't muddy the waters with our personal editing choices. OMMV)

 

[MikeMyers]

On 11/8/2022 at 10:54 AM, Adam Bonn said:

The trouble with the (perfectly logical to ask) question how much highlight recovery is there? Is that the answer for every camera is the same:

None.

Can I please ask, in general terms that anyone can understand, what this means for the Leica M10, M10-R, and M11 ?

Numbers and circles and lines and graphs are fascinating, and would be more so if I understood them better.  But in normal use, including low-light situations, if I were to take the same photo with all three cameras, with the same lens, and the same settings, what might the advantage or disadvantage be between these three cameras?

Would this be obvious for all lighting conditions, or only in photos taken under "special" conditions?

 

Sorry, I see a lot of lines, and dots, but I can't relate to this in the "real world".  

I know my newer cameras (Leica M10, Nikon D780) do a better job of taking photos with very light areas, and very dark areas than my M8.2 which "struggles" in many ways.  I know the M8.2 is better when I keep the ISO reasonably low, and the M10 and D780 can capture images in ISO ranges I never dreamed of while growing up.  But I don't think this is what we are talking about.  

Of, if the above question doesn't make sense, of the three cameras (M10, M10-R, and M11) which cameras have limitations in dynamic range, and what kids of photos am I better off not trying to capture with one or more of them?

[Chimichurri]

15 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Can I please ask, in general terms that anyone can understand, what this means for the Leica M10, M10-R, and M11 ?

Well. Shadow recovery is fine on both the M10 and the M10R, but the highlights forget it. As you can see all you get on the M10/P is a gray mess. And this is the real world experience..

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Edited November 12, 2022 by Chimichurri

[Jeff S]

See Adam’s comments regarding dynamic range vs exposure latitude.

Jeff

[Robert Blanko]

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vor 17 Stunden schrieb MikeMyers:

Of, if the above question doesn't make sense, of the three cameras (M10, M10-R, and M11) which cameras have limitations in dynamic range, and what kids of photos am I better off not trying to capture with one or more of them?

There does not exist any digital camera which does not have limitations in dynamic range. Every digital camera has this limitations, be it M10, M10-R or M11.

The only question in said respect is, how do the cameras adjust the exposure so that their limited dynamic ranges stretches from very dark areas to very bright areas of the photo without losing information. As Adam said, every information which is contained in the dynamic range beyond the upper end of the window, i.e. is brighter than what the dynamic range window of the camera allows, is lost.

The size of the dynamic range window is different though for different cameras, maybe one stop or even more wider for M11 than for M10 (I don't have the exact numbers at hand, but I think this is realistic), so that it may be easier to set the exposure appropriately without losing information. But nevertheless, if the auto-exposure feature is badly implemented (or manual exposure done inappropriately), this will not help at all...

Imagine the scene would have 16 stops of dynamic range, you - or the camera - would have to decide which parts of the information of the dark end or/and the bright end of the dynamic range to clip, if the camera would have only 14 stops.

Thus, it depends... But the larger the dynamic range of the camera the better.

[Adam Bonn]

I don't doubt for a nano-second that the M10R has more exposure latitude (and a touch more DR) than the regular M10.

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But really IMHO the M10 isn't the highlight crapshoot that some places on the internet would have you believe....

 

 

Is that really such a poor and unusable amount of exposure latitude? I tentatively suggest not....

(yes obviously I made a poor exposure choice to begin with, but all quite recoverable IMO...)

[Jeff S]

As with most of photography, primarily a user issue.  Gear today… combined with editing software…is remarkably capable.

Jeff

[MikeMyers]

The more I think about this, the more I think I'll just stick to my M10.  I also have a Nikon D780.

This link is to a comparison of the dynamic range of cameras:

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

Select whatever cameras you are interested in.  For me, it brings me to the screen-shot I'll copy below:

So, as I'm sitting here at my computer, with both cameras behind me, from this discussion I can upgrade from my M10 to an M10-R (or M11) for probably $6,000 or so, or forget about this and use my Nikon D780 which has better dynamic range than any of the Leica cameras I'm interested in.  I prefer to use my Leica, but that's a personal preference - according to the data, this latest Nikon is better.

The D780 costs "only" around $2,300 new.  The Leica are around $9,000 or so.  I already got my M10 three years or so ago, and for me, it already does everything I wanted in an M series camera.  But this discussion is about dynamic range, and most of the time, for most images I'm likely to make, the D780 is better.

I suspect that it doesn't matter which of these five cameras I use, they're all essentially the same, and my choice of camera is based on a lot more than just "dynamic range".......     and I prefer USING the Leica.

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Edited November 12, 2022 by MikeMyers

[Zivco Photo]

Though I have M10-P, M-9, M8, I find my Nikon D780 to be remarkably capable camera also, this after D4S, D700,D200 etc.  the dynamic range and low light capabilities are awesome. 
 

But of course it is not a rangefinder camera and that is the shooting style I prefer. 

[Adam Bonn]

59 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

As with most of photography, primarily a user issue.  Gear today… combined with editing software…is remarkably capable.

Jeff

This is spot on IMHO 

[MikeMyers]

2 minutes ago, Zivco Photo said:

shooting style

You just nailed what I've been trying to put into words.  Shooting Style.

I prefer now, and for a few years, the Leica RF style and everything that goes with it.  But the D780 seems to be at least as good as my Leica, and I think it is better.  When I'm taking the image, I'm all Leica.  But when the image gets to my computer, The D780 seems to have an edge.  By the time editing is done, I think I get equal results from either camera, when I capture images that include both bright sunny areas, and heavily shaded areas.  DxO PhotoLab allows me to process the image using "layers", so each part of the image is processed properly.  I didn't know about this until a few days ago, when I was unable to get a difficult image to look the way I wanted.  I shot essentially the same image with my D780 and my M10, and nothing worked until my friend showed me how to use masks, so I could process each part of the image separately.

My gut feeling is that the D780 is slightly better than the M10, M10-P, M10-R, and M11 for the types of photography I do.  On the other hand, the shooting experience, as in how I use the camera, leaves me preferring the Leica.  Since I'm doing photography for my personal enjoyment, that's very important.  The Leica becomes part of me, while the Nikon is always a tool I hold in my hands.  Shooting Style.  That's important to me.

[Chimichurri]

5 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

forget about this and use my Nikon D780

If I was in your shoes that’s what I would do. I would have fun with my M10 and lenses. 

But then I have the D780. A camera I would take where I wouldn’t take the M. And I would have probably 2 lenses for it. A 24-70 and a 70-200. 

If I had a beach vacation where I needed to get things dirty sandy maybe rain or wet. Yea. 24-70 and my D780. Bring out the Leica at night or keep it at home. Because my Leica is sturdy but I’m not putting it on the sand and shoving it in water proof bags to go snorkel somewhere. Nah. D780 and a g-shock it is. 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Chimichurri

[MikeMyers]

29 minutes ago, Chimichurri said:

A camera I would take where I wouldn’t take the M.

My thoughts as well.  If an alligator swallowed my D780 and lens, one phone call to B&H would replace them.  The D780 is affordable, by my standards at least, and I bought my recent lenses used from KEH.  If that alligator swallowed my M10, I can't find another new M10, and I can't afford to buy the replacement cameras.  I always am aware of this when reaching for a camera.

(I've also got my new Nikon Df........   It's been sitting, neglected.)

[Jeff S]

If an alligator swallowed all my Leica gear, it would be replaced quickly, without cost, including any replacement upgrades if the current model was no longer available.  It’s called insurance.  Never a sweat.

Jeff

[MikeMyers]

Let's just consider the camera.  It may now be three years old, and the cost back then was something over $6000.  Let's say insurance covered half of that, or $3,000.  Since I can't buy another new M10, it would be an M10-R, for between $8000 and $9000.  

With my three-month old Nikon D780, it sells for $2,300 or so, and insurance might cover a good part of that.  Let's say insurance only covered $1,500 or so.  That means I would need to add on only $800 to replace it.

 

I don't understand insurance very well, and I think if I really want my camera gear covered, I need to find the value of what I've got, and get a "rider" or whatever it's called to cover my camera stuff.  I expect that would be very expensive.  I have "Homeowner's Insurance"; I guess I ought to find out what it does cover.  

Bottom line is I'm much more protective of my Leica, where I take it, how I use it, and so on.  

I don't expect to run into too many alligators, but Florida has these things called "hurricanes", and if I lived somewhere else, I'd be concerned with fires and floods and tornados and whatever else I'm not thinking of just now - but the news is full of homes that vanished from one of the above.  

You have a good thought there - maybe we should have a thread in which to discuss camera insurance.....

[Jeff S]

Already many insurance discussions available via search.

Mine covers full replacement cost of each item, which I establish up front, subject to up to 50% appreciation without update required. No deductible, worldwide, all circumstances outside warranty, including my own stupidity.

Policies vary greatly by company, by location and by individual circumstances.  Mine is subject to strict underwriting standards, but is relatively inexpensive given overall photo costs, and is also used to cover my print and book collection, etc.

Jeff

[Adam Bonn]

7 hours ago, Jeff S said:

If an alligator swallowed all my Leica gear, it would be replaced quickly, without cost, including any replacement upgrades if the current model was no longer available.  It’s called insurance.  Never a sweat.

Jeff

I thought you were going to say that you’d dive in after the alligator (like Michael Douglas in Romancing the Stone) then the next time we saw you you’d have your camera back AND be wearing alligator skin boots 😁

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

I thought you were going to say that you’d dive in after the alligator (like Michael Douglas in Romancing the Stone) then the next time we saw you you’d have your camera back AND be wearing alligator skin boots 😁

If I told that story, everyone would know that it was a ‘crock’…

Jeff