Confused? I am.

[pedaes]

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1 hour ago, graphlex said:

The name change is certainly confusing

It's a lot less clumsy than 'LHSA-The International Society'. I belong to both TLS and LSI and I am not confused (.com)!  In the UK there is also 'The Leica Fellowship', with  international members (several of whom also belong to LSI). 

Perhaps this needs merging with Thread started by @andybarton ?

Edited November 2, 2022 by pedaes

[willeica]

8 minutes ago, pedaes said:

It's a lot less clumsy than 'LHSA-The International Society'. I belong to both TLS and LSI and I am not confused (.com)!  In the UK there is also 'The Leica Fellowship', with  international members (several of whom also belong to LSI). 

Perhaps this needs merging with Thread started by @andybarton ?

Thanks Keith. It was delightful to see you in Dublin. I should have added that Jim Lager, who was one of the founding members of LHSA/LSI , was at the TLS AGM in Buxton earlier this year, which I also attended. Sir David Suchet, Hon President of TLS, was delighted to meet Jim, a man who has given advice and assistance to Leica users around the world for over half a century. That is the spirit in which Leica societies should operate. 

William 

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[Matlock]

1 hour ago, willeica said:

I am a member of both societies, as are several other regular participants on this forum, and I don't see any conflict or confusion. I regularly write articles for both societies. I heard LHSA/ILS (now LSI) being referred to as 'The American Society' earlier this year, but it is no longer that. LSI now has 3,000 members in over 70 countries and 1,000 of those members are in Europe. Only about 50% of members are in the US. Up to last month I was the only European member of the Board of LSI, but now I have been joined by two other members from Europe, Jono Slack from the UK and Hari Subramanyam (also a forum member here) from Germany. It is easy to make fun of people who join such societies, but harder to join and do some work on behalf of the global Leica community. Both The Leica Society (TLS) and Leica Society International (LSI) do great work and serve their membership communities very well.

Apart from that, indeed.

William 

Whilst I tend to agree with you William (I too am a member of both societies), there have already been some comments about the similarity of titles and one person assumed that the two had merged. Perhaps a little more thought could have gone into the move? I don't quite understand your comment about people making fun of those who join such societies, who did you have in mind?

Peter

 

[willeica]

Just now, Matlock said:

Whilst I tend to agree with you William (I too am a member of both societies), there have already been some comments about the similarity of titles and one person assumed that the two had merged. Perhaps a little more thought could have gone into the move? I don't quite understand your comment about people making fun of those who join such societies, who did you have in mind?

Peter

 

People who post Monty Python memes?

William 

[Matlock]

Just now, willeica said:

People who post Monty Python memes?

William 

Oh I see (and agree). Cheers

Peter.

 

 

[willeica]

3 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

I have just received an email today from Richard Rejino, advising me that the LHSA has decided at the Dublin Meeting, to change its name from the LHSA to The Leica Society International. I am guessing this was done without consultation with the UK based Leica Society, whose origins as the Leica Postal Portfolio in 1936, has a rather longer history than the LHSA and is I believe, the longest continuously running Leica association in the world. I feel this change in name may well cause some confusion and is rather stepping on the toes of the Leica Society. 

What do others think, particularly Leica Society members? Due to health and age reasons, I gave up my membership of LHSA this year. 

Wilson

 

Dear Wilson

Your email to Richard has reached me and I will reply here and by email as well if you wish. I will be saying the same thing in both cases.  I'll start by quoting what I have already said above .

" I am a member of both societies, as are several other regular participants on this forum, and I don't see any conflict or confusion. I regularly write articles for both societies. I heard LHSA/ILS (now LSI) being referred to as 'The American Society' earlier this year, but it is no longer that. LSI now has 3,000 members in over 70 countries and 1,000 of those members are in Europe. Only about 50% of members are in the US. Up to last month I was the only European member of the Board of LSI, but now I have been joined by two other members from Europe, Jono Slack from the UK and Hari Subramanyam (also a forum member here) from Germany. It is easy to make fun of people who join such societies, but harder to join and do some work on behalf of the global Leica community. Both The Leica Society (TLS) and Leica Society International (LSI) do great work and serve their membership communities very well."

You will also have seen the posts from Keith Walker (pedaes) on this subject. 

What is now LSI was founded in 1968 and, frankly, it would be ridiculous to start arguing in 2022 about 1968 v 1936 and Postal Portfolios and all that kind of thing.  From about 1968 to 1970/71 the organisation was actually known as Leica Collectors International (LCI) and then changed to LHSA, with the International Leica Society tag being added in more recent years. I have already explained the reasoning behind the Leica Society International order of words. I can see no possibility of confusion between both bodies and I am speaking as a member of both. They cover the same territory in many respects, but they are quite distinct in nature. You will recall that Jim Lager, who was one of the founder members of LCI/LHSA/LSI in 1968, was a speaker at the TLS Conference in Buxton last April and I recall that you were delighted to meet him there.

I believe that there is room for all types of Leica Societies, Fellowships, Meets, Forums, Historica etc and we should be talking about cooperation rather than separation. As an example, last year I took an article from the German Historica Society VIDOM magazine and, with the permission of the author, who was the Treasurer of the German Society, I had it translated into English for publication in the LHSA/LSI Viewfinder magazine. Some of my articles have appeared in both TLS magazine and Viewfinder and on Macfilos which straddles all in an online sense.

I hope I am making sense. I am sorry to hear that you have ceased your membership of LSI. You may recall that earlier this year I asked you if you were coming to the Dublin meeting. You would have been most welcome here.

William 

 

 

[ianman]

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12 hours ago, Matlock said:

Oh I see (and agree). Cheers

Peter.

 

 

Oh dear, I am so sorry to have added a little humour. Just to clarify, the post was not to make fun of people who join such societies I simply found the name change odd and slightly amusing. I see willleica still can’t help himself from taking the usual quick jab. Perhaps one day he’ll have the decency of letting me know exactly why I am the target of his continuing contempt despite my attempts of a rapprochement.

[Guest]

@ianman and that’s why I didn’t take up the extension of my membership 😂

I got it free with the M purchase and looked at the content, didn’t go back after 2 week if that.

Edited November 3, 2022 by OThomas

[250swb]

When once there was clarity let there now be confusion. 

As a member of The Leica Society, note not 'The Leica Society UK', I think by definition it is an international society, which makes LHSA changing it's name to ILS to claim squatting rights a bit cheeky and arrogant and I don't care how big it is. 

[derleicaman]

I am sorry to see some of the responses here about the name change of the LHSA to LSI. I consider all of you to be friends, even though I may not have met you all in person. FYI, I have been in leadership of our Society since 1996, first as VP and then President from 1998 to 2000, and editor of the Viewfinder since 2000.

We did not make this name change without consideration of our sister societies, but here was our situation. For many years, we have felt that the "history" part of our name was limiting our appeal to new members. Most of them are users, and the historical aspect was becoming less of what we do. I think this has been reflected in the content of Viewfinder, for which I am responsible. The ad hoc name we have been using for a few years was cumbersome. LHSA - The International Leica Society. We needed to shorten it. It made no sense to have the new name be International Leica Society. We needed to start the name of our organization with Leica, we are a Society and we do have an International level of inclusion in our membership. Therefore, LSI, or Leica Society International made sense. Very sorry if we have offended anyone here with our choice of name, and it was not intentional to offend anyone.

It was also very difficult to come up with our new logo. Many were pushing for a red dot, which would have caused problems with Leica Microsystems. The new logo reflects the red rhomboid shape we had with the LHSA and the frame lines of the M3 for a border. We are still using a varient of the Leica script "L". The new logo is truly a bridge between old and new. Believe me, there were many heated discussions about this as well.

Please feel free to contact me off forum to discuss how I may improve Viewfinder to bring you back into the fold. We want to be inclusive and not excluding anyone. It hurts to see people not happy with an organization I have been associated with and have devoted almost 40 years of my life to.

[Herr Barnack]

I have wondered for the past couple of years about the possibility of LHSA being offensive to members in nations other than America. 

Leica Historical Society of America - I would have thought some would consider that name to be cheeky and arrogant, given that there are members residing in many nations around the world.  I have also wondered for the past couple of years when a name change would take place to address the international nature of the society's membership as a whole.

Now we have a new name that is inclusive of all members, regardless of what nation they reside in - and some are offended by the new name.  No matter what the society does in terms of its name, someone somewhere is going to be offended.  There is no pleasing everyone all of the time.

I welcome the name change and do not see it as a slap in the face to anyone or any other Leica organization.  It was never intended as such.  That's just me, though.

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[ianman]

1 hour ago, Herr Barnack said:

Leica Historical Society of America - I would have thought some would consider that name to be cheeky and arrogant, given that there are members residing in many nations around the world.

I’m not a member but if I were I wouldn’t find the name either cheeky, arrogant or offensive. Presumably LHSA name describes exactly what is is - or at least what it was when was founded. Had I joined in would be in full knowledge of the name and it’s meaning and don’t see why I could then claim to be offended. I don’t see why having the word America in its name would make the society less welcome to potential international members.

if I were to be invited to join the Kansas Symphony Orchestra I wouldn’t feel offended by their name either although I’m not from Kansas, nor want them to change their name either.

Just imo, and I know it’s worthless.

Edited November 3, 2022 by ianman

[pedaes]

1 hour ago, ianman said:

the word America in its name would make the society less welcome to potential international members.

That was true for me when I joined. Main motivation back then was Viewfinder journal and access to the Viewfinder archive.

[250swb]

2 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

I welcome the name change and do not see it as a slap in the face to anyone or any other Leica organization.  It was never intended as such.  That's just me, though.

 

Many good intentions turn out to be anything other, and this isn’t a slap in the face, this is usurping an older society because they can. I mean if this was trade mark law they’d not get away with it.

Edited November 3, 2022 by 250swb

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

Leica Historical Society of America - I would have thought some would consider that name to be cheeky and arrogant

Not that -but exclusive.

[Matlock]

On 11/2/2022 at 6:29 PM, willeica said:

 

Perhaps a little more thought could have gone into the change of name with, possibly, some consultation. We now have two societies with similar names which is rather confusing. I will continue to be members of both as they have a great deal to offer in different ways. As far as I am concerned ILS is far more descriptive than LSI which doesn't quite work. Very sad. 

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Matlock

[Matlock]

5 hours ago, derleicaman said:

 We needed to shorten it. It made no sense to have the new name be International Leica Society.

Why? I think that would have been the obvious choice and would have avoided any confusion. A lack of joined up thinking I believe.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Matlock

[willeica]

10 hours ago, 250swb said:

When once there was clarity let there now be confusion. 

As a member of The Leica Society, note not 'The Leica Society UK', I think by definition it is an international society, which makes LHSA changing it's name to ILS to claim squatting rights a bit cheeky and arrogant and I don't care how big it is. 

I am a member of both and I don't see where name squatting rights exist on either side. As for the 'cheeky and arrogant' bit I cannot see where you get this. LHSA has had the ILS tag since about 2012. At this stage only 1,500 of the 3,000 members are in the US.  I presume you are not going to join LSI. I am also a proud member of TLS and I will be attending its next AGM. Happy to see you there.

8 hours ago, derleicaman said:

We needed to start the name of our organization with Leica, we are a Society and we do have an International level of inclusion in our membership. Therefore, LSI, or Leica Society International made sense. Very sorry if we have offended anyone here with our choice of name, and it was not intentional to offend anyone.

Thanks, Bill, that describes it perfectly. As a member of both organisations I cannot see where offence arises, but certainly none was intended. I am also a member of the equally wonderful Photographic Collectors Club of Great Britain (PCCGB) and on the weekend after the Dublin conference I went to Poole in Dorset, involving flights and rail journeys etc, to speak to them about Unusual Leicas and then again last Sunday I did the same again for them by Zoom. I am just about to start working on two articles about the forthcoming Leitz camera and photographic auctions. Perhaps some of the energy expended here over names of organisations might be better used doing something for Leica enthusiasts. There certainly seems to be a lot of energy about which could be used to good effect. 

7 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

I have wondered for the past couple of years about the possibility of LHSA being offensive to members in nations other than America. 

Leica Historical Society of America - I would have thought some would consider that name to be cheeky and arrogant, given that there are members residing in many nations around the world.  I have also wondered for the past couple of years when a name change would take place to address the international nature of the society's membership as a whole.

 

If you read my post above you will see the changing international nature of the membership of the organisation. It is no longer American in the sense that it once was. For the past two years I have been the only non US member of the Board, but I have pushed them and even annoyed them into becoming more international as the former suffix stated. Now I am VP and Treasurer and I have been joined by two additional non US board members, Jono and Hari, as indicated above. So, we have made a lot of progress since I joined the Board. I have been working on the inside to address the exact points which you have made. I can assure you that it doesn't always make me very popular, but I am always more concerned with getting things done rather than about what people think of me.

 

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

Not that -but exclusive.

We have several very happy Dutch members who regularly contribute articles to Viewfinder. 

2 hours ago, Matlock said:

A lack of joined up thinking I believe.

I cannot see any lack of joined up thinking here. Can you elaborate?  Bill and I have explained the thinking and the need in an era of search engines and social media to have 'Leica' as far up the word chain as possible. In case you think that TLS is ignored, I constantly remind my colleagues of its existence and my joint membership. I was a member of TLS before I joined the former LHSA. Both are wonderful organisations.

To finish, a lot of people here might like to consider using the energy they express here to work for either or both of the two* splendid organisations mentioned in this thread. If that sounds like a challenge, it is.

William 

* PCCGB Is also a splendid organisation which I can heartily recommend.

 

[Matlock]

7 hours ago, willeica said:

 

 

 

I cannot see any lack of joined up thinking here. Can you elaborate?  Bill and I have explained the thinking and the need in an era of search engines and social media to have 'Leica' as far up the word chain as possible. In case you think that TLS is ignored, I constantly remind my colleagues of its existence and my joint membership. I was a member of TLS before I joined the former LHSA. Both are wonderful organisations.

To finish, a lot of people here might like to consider using the energy they express here to work for either or both of the two* splendid organisations mentioned in this thread. If that sounds like a challenge, it is.

William 

* PCCGB Is also a splendid organisation which I can heartily recommend.

 

The lack of joined up thinking is the fact that the LHSA logo is known and well respected throughout the world and is instantly recognised. There are many organisations that have out of date and, sometimes, archaic logos but continue to use them because people have got used to them. Your comments about search engines and media don't really stack up but, in the end, the decision has been made. Were the members consulted over the change? I certainly didn't have any communications.

I will continue to be a proud member of both societies but I certainly won't be buying any corporate clothing, badges etc. as. in my mind, the new logo looks rather tacky. 

Peter.

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[Ouroboros]

On the face of it, to me as a non-member, this nonsense reminds me why I have, throughout my entire photographic life, avoided joining camera clubs. I’d like to think there’s more to a ‘Leica Society’ than what I see in this thread.

Other than the obvious interest for camera collectors, does membership of any of these organisations offer anything for photographers who, like myself, have little interest in collecting stuff?