Rolo Posted August 16, 2006 Share #1 Posted August 16, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Talking today to a Canon 1Ds pro studio user who said he has a big problem with dust spots on his sensor. His camera body has been sent for the third time to be cleaned in 12 months and it costs £70 a time, plus it's normally away for at least a week. Said he was doing some portraits and whilst viewing on PC saw dust spot on the end of a kiddie's nose. Got me thinking about M8. With a following wind, I can only afford one M8 body in the short term. I'll need to be changing lenses more frequently than I do today with 2 M film bodies. There is no sensible Leica M zoom lens to avoid/reduce the number of changes as is the case with any DSLR. Presumeably, every lens change is a liability, but I can't pussy around with a camera on a wedding shoot ? The beauy of the M series is that two or three cameras can be on hand with their prime lenses. If you're a DSLR user now, and change lenses frequently, is my mates dust experience unusual in your experience ? Is there a product feature that Leica could/will adopt to avoid/reduce dust ? What will you be doing to keep your M8 working and what will your back-up strategy be if it has too go for cleaning ? Pro's using DSLR's appear to always have another matching camera as backup which, IMO, doesn't quite seem the same as having another film camera in the car. Will you be buying more than one M8 ???? Any thoughts? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 16, 2006 Posted August 16, 2006 Hi Rolo, Take a look here M8 dust risk and camera back-up strategy ?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andybarton Posted August 16, 2006 Share #2 Posted August 16, 2006 Does the Canon have a shutter or is the sensor exposed in the throat of the camera? (Pardon my ignorance of such things) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zanydave Posted August 16, 2006 Share #3 Posted August 16, 2006 I use Leica M & R but as far digital goes, I use an Olympus E-1. The dust issue is a real concern.... Sad really when this is the only reason for not buying into a system. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted August 16, 2006 Share #4 Posted August 16, 2006 it will be easier to clean the sensor in the M8 than it is in a DSLR like the 1DS. The latter has the mirror box in the way and reaching the sensor is a little bit awkward. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravastar Posted August 16, 2006 Share #5 Posted August 16, 2006 Does the Canon have a shutter or is the sensor exposed in the throat of the camera? (Pardon my ignorance of such things) The 1Ds and 5D have a vertical metal shutter BUT there's a "flipping" mirror in there stirring things up . With most of Canon's zooms you can hear and feel the air as it escapes from orifices around the camera body. That's certainly true with the 5D where it gets quite draughty around the eye piece and battery compartment. I find much less of a dust problem with Epson's RD-1 compared with the Canon 1Ds and 5D ___ Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted August 16, 2006 Share #6 Posted August 16, 2006 The best thing that Leica can do is to adopt the two-parts design of the R9+DMR, or something similar. The M8 should be designed in such a way that the sensor+electronic parts be separable from the rest of the camera. In this way, the sensor could be easy and completely accesible. One such design also allow for upgrades to the electronic components of the camera (sensor+processor+LCD). The other solution is a filter like that of the Olympus. It works very well, but it cannot be applied to a rangefinder camera at this moment, I think. In a few days we will see how the M8 is designed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted August 16, 2006 Share #7 Posted August 16, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I've worked on archaeological digs in the the Jordan valley with dust everywhere, all the time, and needed to change lenses constantly. I used D1x, SLRn, and D2x. Cleaning the sensor was a daily ritual, but, in decent light and quiet conditions, took only a minute or so. There's a cleaning kit called Sensor Brush that will allow you to clean quickly and efficiently. There are also sensor swabs, but they don't work as well. Dust is a problem, but really, if you're prepared to deal with it, a minor one. Nikon, by the way, originally suggested that you send the cameras in for cleaning rather than do it yourself, but that obviously wasn't a workable solution for professionals in, say, a war zone. So now, it's routinely accepted that cleaning is a do-it-yourself deal. if your friend is sending his cameras to be cleaned at 70 pounds a time, he must have a lot of extra money. Instructions for sensor cleaning are all over the web. JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ross Posted August 16, 2006 Share #8 Posted August 16, 2006 The other solution is a filter like that of the Olympus. It works very well, but it cannot be applied to a rangefinder camera at this moment, I think.In a few days we will see how the M8 is designed. The Oly dust shaker probably could be used on any focal plane shutter arrangement, but it requires that the shutter be moved forward and this might interfere with Leica's collapsible lenses. The OP mentioned Canon cameras and I have read that the Canon CMOS sensors are very attractive to dust compared to CCDs. I have an E-1 and have had no dust in going on three years, so it is a good idea. The M8 sensor might be easier to clean than DSLRs, not as far to reach and it might be easier to inspect....we'll see on that one over time:) Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted August 16, 2006 Author Share #9 Posted August 16, 2006 "So now, it's routinely accepted that cleaning is a do-it-yourself deal. if your friend is sending his cameras to be cleaned at 70 pounds a time, he must have a lot of extra money." He sends it to Fixation in London. Their one week turnaround has slipped to 3 weeks because of the back-log from the World Cup. I've read that Canon is worse than others, but have no idea whether that means down time, or a quick brush-up every morning ? Again please, what is an M8 users back-up strategy ? Will anyone be buying two bodies? My especial interest is that I want to buy an M8, or an M7 in the next six months. If I need 2xM8, then I will be going M7, methinks. Might as well buy an M7 sooner than later to go with my MP. [i also need another lens and lens strategy is body dependant now!]. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted August 16, 2006 Share #10 Posted August 16, 2006 I do not have a lot of dust on the DMR sensor. I've not even cleaned it once a month in a year of ownership. Of course, I do not use it in very rough environments but I use only primes and I'm changing lenses outdoor quite often. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
like_no_other Posted August 16, 2006 Share #11 Posted August 16, 2006 To the surprise of all Leica will recommend to send the camera in for sensor cleaning. They have to push their revenue and we have to take the blame. Rolo, in normal conditions dust is not the big issue. Pay attention to change lenses quickly. Beside that it's very uncommon that you see the dust at all on your pictures if you shoot wide open - the way you should use your Leica. Being at home after your assignement you will have the time to step down to f22, shoot the sky and study the test pictures for dust. Then clean the sensor and it will be ok for a while. If you need a second camera I would recommend the Sony Alpha 100. Small, unobstrusive, more light-weight than the Leica, very good user interface and excellent image quality. Maybe together with the Zeiss 16-80 mm. This lens will be available as of november. The Alpha could get the little brother of your M8. Best regards, Philip Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted August 16, 2006 Share #12 Posted August 16, 2006 Most photographers I know clean their own sensors. Sending the camera in really isn't necessary. Any digital camera with interchangeable lenses can develop dust on the glass over the sensor (even the E-1). Some are better than others in this respect but the main thing to do is to learn a cleaning routine and do it when needed. Full frame Canons seem to draw dust more than others but it's no big deal. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted August 16, 2006 Share #13 Posted August 16, 2006 The Oly dust shaker probably could be used on any focal plane shutter arrangement, but it requires that the shutter be moved forward and this might interfere with Leica's collapsible lenses. The problem is that the super-wave filter is a glass filter in front of the sensor, and this filter has some influence in the light rays. The E-System works with almost telecentric lenses, and this reduces the magnitude of the problem with the filter. Olympus' solution is easy to replicate, but no manufacturer did it. Sony's anti-dust system is not the same: the entire sensor vibrates (at a lower frequency). Olympus' system works, but Sony's... Sony Alpha A100 review The other effective solution is the easy-to-access sensor of the DMR. Does CCD sensors attract less dust than CMOS sensors? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zanydave Posted August 16, 2006 Share #14 Posted August 16, 2006 Totally unacceptable in my opinion. Will go for the DMR as it seems a lot easier to clean. The only reason I started using the E-1.... Never had this problem with film. Imagine, you download & you got all that work in photoshop!.... Arrrrgh! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 16, 2006 Share #15 Posted August 16, 2006 ... the main thing to do is to learn a cleaning routine and do it when needed... Agreed, it's a no brainer. I use Eclipse and Sensor Swabs personally. http://www.photosol.com/swabproduct.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
like_no_other Posted August 16, 2006 Share #16 Posted August 16, 2006 Rosuna, Sony's anti dust system works. Special sensor coating in combination with sensor vibration results in less dust on the sensor. KM 7D approx. since market launch in use, never needed more than an air brush. Sony Alpha for a relative longe time in use. No dust at all. Comparatively better than 7D. Maybe Olympus is even better, who knows:eek: But image quality counts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted August 16, 2006 Author Share #17 Posted August 16, 2006 Some are better than others in this respect but the main thing to do is to learn a cleaning routine and do it when needed. Full frame Canons seem to draw dust more than others but it's no big deal. Cheers, Sean Thanks Sean, it's comforting to know this. Rolo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme_clarke Posted August 16, 2006 Share #18 Posted August 16, 2006 Gaz, I had no trouble at all with dust on my DMR from last October until June. I kept trying the blue sky shot - (choose a cloudless day, shoot RAW, process in C1 and enlarge the shot in photoshop then do a grid search of its whole area) - then wham, dust! Each particle covered about 4 pixels. Then light dawned - grass pollen. We had a very bad year this summer in the UK - the grasses were prolific. The stuff was everywhere - inside and outside the house. Careful cleaning late one evening eventually got rid of it. Since mid- July dust not been a problem. Cleaning the DMR sensor is much easier than poking into the body of any other DSLR. I guess that that access to the M8 sensor will have to be from the front with the shutter locked open - so cleaning will not be as easy as the DMR. However, there should not be as much turbulence in the body because there is no mirror to flap the air around. As others have said, changing the lens in as calm a place as possible, as quickly as possible, without running the risk of dropping something, seems to be the best tactic to reduce what can be an unavoidable problem when there are billions of pollen grains about! Best wishes, Graeme Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted August 16, 2006 Share #19 Posted August 16, 2006 Rosuna, Sony's anti dust system works. Well, I have not tested it personally, but two reviews say it is not as good as the Olympus system. The link to the first review is in a previous post, and the second one is written in Spanish by a reputed journalist (editor of the FV magazine), Valentín Sama: http://www.exakta.net/Sony-Alfa-100-prueba-tecnica.html Olympus' anti-dust system (Super Sonic Wave Filter, SSWF) consist of a filter that vibrates at a very high frequency. The sensor itself is sealed and is not affected by this shaking. Sony's anti-dust system consist of a filter on the sensor, and the same mechanism responsible of the stabilization (anti-shake) vibrates at a lower frequency than in the case of Olympus. Olympus includes an adherent band for the shaked dust, but Sony doesn't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted August 16, 2006 Share #20 Posted August 16, 2006 An obvious, but often overlooked, tip that made a huge difference for me is to make sure that the sensor is pointing at the ground while the lens is off the camera. After all, they didn't invent gravity for nothing! ;-)) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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