Editing M10 raw files. Help please.

[falling_in2_infinity]

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Hi L-camera folk!

After nearly 10 years without owning a digital Leica, I recently purchased a used M10, in basically mint condition.  Yay!  Loving shooting it, just as I did the M8 and M9.

Unfortunately, I have been really struggling to find a simple editing workflow that works consistently for the raw files.  I've tried Lightroom 5, Lightroom CC (latest), Capture One (latest), Darkroom, and Raw Power plugin for Apple Photos.  I've also paid for so many different plugins, but I just get nothing consistent, and certainly nothing attractive.  I feel like I'm just going around in circles to find something consistent.  To the point that I'm actually preferring the OOC jpegs in many situations (though they're by no means ideal).

 

I confess, 10 years shooting Fuji cameras, it's been a while since I did any serious RAW editing.  I used to teach it, but it doesn't come naturally any more!

 

Recently, I've been carrying around my x-rite colour checker, to make profiles and set custom WB... which does improve the colour rendering in some situations, but it still feels very inconsistent.

One of the worst problems is that the greens are often very limited in hue range.  At this time of year, there's lots of yellow in the green, but the M10 files just don't capture that subtlety.

 

I'd really appreciate some help/advice.  Perhaps some workflow ideas?

 

For clarification, I am using a Zeiss ZM Planar 50.  I have a colleague who has a 'cron, which I want to try in case it improves things.

[Al Brown]

If no programs work, no plug-ins work, no custom profiles work, no good Zeiss lenses work... could it be you?

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[jaapv]

ON1 offers a preset based workflow. Luminar should work as well. The programs you mention are really meant for users who are deep into editing, and as you mention a simplified workflow are really not very suitable. ON1 and Luminar are at a similar level but also cater for your preferred type of processing. Have a look at the quality and calibration of your screen as well! 

[Stuart Richardson]

You might consider trying the Cobalt Imaging profiles. I found them to be better than the custom profiles I made with the Xrite color checker when I was in a similar position with the S3. I would give them a try. I know it is another thing to buy, but it may help. I found that they had better tonality and color discrimination, especially in areas where the gamut was being stretched...things like vibrant colors in the dark, sunsets and sunrises etc. The skies were less cyan/yellow and more blue/magenta (as they should be to my eyes at least). Greens too were a bit less yellow. Perhaps they can improve the greens for you. If it does not, then you might consider trying a different camera. I was also an M8 and M9 user who was never convinced by the M10 sensor, though I loved the body itself. I sold it before I was aware of Cobalt Imaging's profiles, however.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Stuart Richardson

[frame-it]

34 minutes ago, falling_in2_infinity said:

really appreciate some help/advice.  Perhaps some workflow ideas?

but no info on shooting settings & no sample pics..

[wda]

An M10 is a serious camera which will reward a serious photographer. Maybe a simpler camera producing satisfactory jpegs is all you need?

[jaapv]

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BTW a good trick to improve colour detail and hues in Photoshop is to shorten the curve range (left and right by the same amount) in the A and B channel in LAB. 

[Ouroboros]

Calibrate your monitor before doing any of the above.

Then link to some files and we'll take it from there.

 

[UliWer]

I am still following the advice Chris Tribble gave here some years ago - I think it was for the M9, but his settings work perfectly for the M 10 as well:

Blacks: +10

Clarity: +10

Vibrance: +17

Tone curve: medium contrast (I often prefer the linear curve)

Sharpening: zero

NOISE REDUCTION

Luminance: zero

Color: 25

Detail: 50

Smoothness: 50

Profile corrections: Enabled

Process: 2012 (current)

Profile: Adobe Standard

Based on this you can finetune as you like by adjusting the curves, which is also possible for RGB colors separately. You also have sliders for hue, saturation and luminance of different colors. No big science. 

[Guest]

As a 10 year+ Fujifilm shooter (X-Pro1, X-T1, X-Pro2, X-T3) and now shooting with the M0-R, I can relate.

Fuji were renown for their greens, Fuji Greens as they were called. Maybe 10 years of Fuji have tilted your balance in favour of those vivid greens. I know I am still getting used to the Leica colours.

I'm currently using the latest versions of Lightroom Classic and Photoshop for post processing. I’ve also gone through all the usual suspects for PP software, including various plugins, but I’ve come down on the side of my favourite Adobe products and will probably stick with them.

I’d suggest stop being a PP software butterfly and choose the software you like and get used to it. Then you can settle with the colours produced.

just my £0.02 worth.

Edited October 26, 2022 by OThomas

[iRandom]

2 hours ago, OThomas said:

As a 10 year+ Fujifilm shooter (X-Pro1, X-T1, X-Pro2, X-T3) and now shooting with the M0-R, I can relate.

Fuji were renown for their greens, Fuji Greens as they were called. Maybe 10 years of Fuji have tilted your balance in favour of those vivid greens. I know I am still getting used to the Leica colours.

I'm currently using the latest versions of Lightroom Classic and Photoshop for post processing. I’ve also gone through all the usual suspects for PP software, including various plugins, but I’ve come down on the side of my favourite Adobe products and will probably stick with them.

I’d suggest stop being a PP software butterfly and choose the software you like and get used to it. Then you can settle with the colours produced.

just my £0.02 worth.

Agreed on the "stop being a PP software butterfly and choose the software you like and get used to it." Just pick the application that clicks with you the most and then tinker with it until you have something you like. Save it as a preset once you do. I use Apple Photos + RawPower for my Q2. I have a preset in RawPower that I use as a baseline and then further tweak maybe 10% of the photos.

[250swb]

3 hours ago, UliWer said:

 

Profile: Adobe Standard

 

I guess Chris was talking about the Adobe Standard profile well before the M10 came along but I think it still works. If I'm processing my M10 files I find the M10 profile in ACR, and most of the others, hideous for landscapes which have any green in them. So I soon switched to Adobe Standard and if not perfect is the ideal starting point especially when using Auto WB.

[Adam Bonn]

23 hours ago, falling_in2_infinity said:

Hi L-camera folk!

After nearly 10 years without owning a digital Leica, I recently purchased a used M10, in basically mint condition.  Yay!  Loving shooting it, just as I did the M8 and M9.

Unfortunately, I have been really struggling to find a simple editing workflow that works consistently for the raw files.  I've tried Lightroom 5, Lightroom CC (latest), Capture One (latest), Darkroom, and Raw Power plugin for Apple Photos.  I've also paid for so many different plugins, but I just get nothing consistent, and certainly nothing attractive.  I feel like I'm just going around in circles to find something consistent.  To the point that I'm actually preferring the OOC jpegs in many situations (though they're by no means ideal).

 

I confess, 10 years shooting Fuji cameras, it's been a while since I did any serious RAW editing.  I used to teach it, but it doesn't come naturally any more!

 

Recently, I've been carrying around my x-rite colour checker, to make profiles and set custom WB... which does improve the colour rendering in some situations, but it still feels very inconsistent.

One of the worst problems is that the greens are often very limited in hue range.  At this time of year, there's lots of yellow in the green, but the M10 files just don't capture that subtlety.

 

I'd really appreciate some help/advice.  Perhaps some workflow ideas?

 

For clarification, I am using a Zeiss ZM Planar 50.  I have a colleague who has a 'cron, which I want to try in case it improves things.

I’m not sure how long ago ‘recently’ is but it sounds like you’ve introduced a ton of variables (lots of apps/plugins) to try and attain happiness.

1. Pick something. I’d pick adobe personally (others will disagree) you have a camera that shoots DNG and adobe is the originator of the DNG image pipeline.

2. Stick with it.

3. I’m a little surprised at your comments re yellowy-greens IME the M10 has a distinct yellow bias to it’s WB and in general

4. For base ISO use 200, 100 is actually a pull and 200 has nicer highlights and more exposure latitude 

5. The Leica profile (Leica M10) is more punchy than the Adobe standard one, but the adobe one will provide more consistent results across various situations 

6. Either lovingly build a profile from the CC24 shot under D50 (or a dual illuminant cloudy/tungsten one) with well exposed glare free, colourcast free file(s) or don’t bother… at this stage in your M10 journey you don’t need to adding umpteen new shot-in-situ profiles into the mix. You can profile the camera later when you feel it has more to give you beyond the consistent results you get from the standard profiles. If you want to fudge about at each photo location use a whibal card.

7. Natively the M10 has a very strong contrast curve. Try editing with the black and white sliders and shadow/highlight sliders to obtain the desired histogram, and then make colour adjustments 

8. Although AWB, or clicking the pipette tool on a neutral area in the image or selecting ‘auto’ in the editing app can yield pleasing  WB results… you can also ‘eyeball’ WB using the slider to get a look you want

9. The camera calibration tool in LR/ACR might be a good starting point to build your own look. Slide green hue to the left for more yellowy greens (again… surprised at this… personally I’d go the other way) and/or add green saturation to boost green/yellow content

10. Zeiss glass has a bit of a rep for cooler rendering… try your friend’s cron and see what you think.

The above is mainly LR/ACR centric, C1 has better colour tools, but I’m not really a fan of it, but many are… I don’t use anything else… RNI (and maybe others) have some free preset packs that you might wanna try for a quick and dirty solution.

 

[UliWer]

3 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

7. Natively the M10 has a very strong contrast curve.

I agree with all you wrote, though not with this point. In comparison e.g. with the M9 the native contrast of files from the M10 looks rather flat, but they have much more latitude to tune contrast and other qualities.

[Adam Bonn]

26 minutes ago, UliWer said:

I agree with all you wrote, though not with this point. In comparison e.g. with the M9 the native contrast of files from the M10 looks rather flat, but they have much more latitude to tune contrast and other qualities.

OP doesn't have an M9!

However I do.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

M10 v M9 everything 100% standard, zero edits, in LR (ignore the guessed aperture, they were the same for each photo which were taken at the same time)

and again

 

Despite the M10 running a higher ISO for the same A/SS parameters, it produces a darker image with more contrast. (ISO 200 should be brighter than 160)

Comparing the M9 to xyz gets tiresome quickly IMO, as you say that's not the point...

My point is this... if you use the setting recommended by the M10's light meter (be that aperture priority or > O < = O in the VF) you get an image with a ton of contrast... sure some cameras may or may not have more or less native contrast, but even in isolation the M10 standard unedited image has a strong native contrast tone.

Of course this is why we edit RAW, this is why we overwrite the camera's recommended exposure suggestion with our own experience

But the point stands, natively in adobe with all standard settings, with standard camera settings the M10 is a contrasty camera and chances are you'll want to edit that in PP

(my hunch here is that the M10 exp meter is calibrated to assist with never clipping a highlight)

 

 

[falling_in2_infinity]

Thanks to all for the replies.  Except the very few snippy and unwelcome comments, some of this has been very helpful.

Unfortunately I don't have the time to upload files at this point, but it's absolutely correct that it will be hard to offer help without that step.

As for the editing software, I was only trying other options because my familiar Lightroom CC was giving me no decent results.  I've reverted to LR5, but still struggling.  I actually find using Snapseed on my iPad gives the most consistent results, but there are some useful features missing.

 

I'll try to upload some comparisons at some point.

 

[falling_in2_infinity]

On 10/26/2022 at 10:34 AM, Al Brown said:

If no programs work, no plug-ins work, no custom profiles work, no good Zeiss lenses work... could it be you?

Very possible, hence asking for help.  This response is not particularly helpful.  This kind of response is probably best left in your mind.

Edited October 28, 2022 by falling_in2_infinity

[falling_in2_infinity]

On 10/26/2022 at 10:50 AM, frame-it said:

but no info on shooting settings & no sample pics..

Yeah, I realised this was an issue.  My apologies if it offended you - I just wanted to see if there was any broad-strokes advice while I'm travelling around.

[Al Brown]

11 minutes ago, falling_in2_infinity said:

Very possible, hence asking for help.  This response is not particularly helpful.  This kind of response is probably best left in your mind.

Nah, it is a public forum and I am free to say whatever I want.
In order to help you you *must* first upload photos and tell us about your settings. All else is just theory.
I have been setting up my profiles for many years and have my Leica workflow down exatcly to the point where I want it.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Al Brown

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[falling_in2_infinity]

On 10/27/2022 at 9:50 AM, Adam Bonn said:

I’m not sure how long ago ‘recently’ is but it sounds like you’ve introduced a ton of variables (lots of apps/plugins) to try and attain happiness.

1. Pick something. I’d pick adobe personally (others will disagree) you have a camera that shoots DNG and adobe is the originator of the DNG image pipeline.

2. Stick with it.

3. I’m a little surprised at your comments re yellowy-greens IME the M10 has a distinct yellow bias to it’s WB and in general

4. For base ISO use 200, 100 is actually a pull and 200 has nicer highlights and more exposure latitude 

5. The Leica profile (Leica M10) is more punchy than the Adobe standard one, but the adobe one will provide more consistent results across various situations 

6. Either lovingly build a profile from the CC24 shot under D50 (or a dual illuminant cloudy/tungsten one) with well exposed glare free, colourcast free file(s) or don’t bother… at this stage in your M10 journey you don’t need to adding umpteen new shot-in-situ profiles into the mix. You can profile the camera later when you feel it has more to give you beyond the consistent results you get from the standard profiles. If you want to fudge about at each photo location use a whibal card.

7. Natively the M10 has a very strong contrast curve. Try editing with the black and white sliders and shadow/highlight sliders to obtain the desired histogram, and then make colour adjustments 

8. Although AWB, or clicking the pipette tool on a neutral area in the image or selecting ‘auto’ in the editing app can yield pleasing  WB results… you can also ‘eyeball’ WB using the slider to get a look you want

9. The camera calibration tool in LR/ACR might be a good starting point to build your own look. Slide green hue to the left for more yellowy greens (again… surprised at this… personally I’d go the other way) and/or add green saturation to boost green/yellow content

10. Zeiss glass has a bit of a rep for cooler rendering… try your friend’s cron and see what you think.

The above is mainly LR/ACR centric, C1 has better colour tools, but I’m not really a fan of it, but many are… I don’t use anything else… RNI (and maybe others) have some free preset packs that you might wanna try for a quick and dirty solution.

 

Thanks so much for this.  I completely agree that sticking to the one piece of software is ideal.  I drifted to trying different solutions when I couldn't get things working nicely in LRCC.