My (maybe brief?) return to film...need some help

[JoshuaRothman]

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I shoot with an M10 and M4-P and really enjoy the combination of film and digital M.

At first, I wrestled a lot with which camera to take out when, and was a little stymied by the question of what the point of it all might be. I even thought that I should throw in fully one way or the other, going all-digital or all-film, rather than have a doubled-up process. I went all-film for a while and certainly enjoyed it.

After a while, though, I figured out that there were different occasions and different styles of photography that I was able to accomplish in the different media. I make certain kinds of pictures with digital and others with film. I think of film as adding to, rather than replacing, my digital photography.

One reason to shoot film, for me, is that it really diversifies what I can do. With digital, all my pictures look similar. With film, there are so many alternative looks. This became especially true after I started using 120 again, in addition to 35mm. Digital photography widens the shooting envelope, with, for example, low-light shooting. But film photography widens the aesthetic envelope, because you can use so many different film stocks (and also camera types).

There are circumstances in which I really value the ability to take unlimited photos very quickly, and to produce "perfect" pictures full of high-res detail. I often shoot digital at big social events, for instance, or when I'm making certain kinds of landscape pictures. There are others times when I value the slower pace, or the more impressionistic look of 35mm, or the more authentic—as I perceive it—capture of whatever happened to be in front of the lens when I tripped the shutter on film. I notice, for example, that, in my digital portraits people always have "perfect" expressions, because I cull out the weird ones. But on film, I keep them, because they're all I have, and down the road I sometimes prefer the strangeness or unpredictability of the film shot.

I also like the mechanical feel of the film cameras, and the rituals of bulk rolling, developing, and printing. 

So my advice is to not overthink it, to follow your intuition, to do what you enjoy, and to let the differences in your approaches develop slowly and on their own.

[Mikep996]

I developed my first two rolls of Ilford XP5 using Ilford's simplicity pack - negs came out perfectly.  I shot two rolls of Ilford FP4, developed it with Df96 multi bath and they were so dense as to be unusable.  I'm sure I did something wrong in the processing so I just shot another roll and will process it with the 96, re-reading the instructions to see if I can understand what I did wrong.  

 

Oh - a question, I have the Paterson double 35mm tank.  Neither reel is able to accept a full 36exp roll (37 images) of film.  In each case the reels jammed before the entire roll was loaded.  Is that normally a problem?  I had SS reels/tanks in all my dark room life previously so this is the first time I have used the Paterson (or any) plastic reels with the "automatic feed."

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[Topsy]

2 minutes ago, Mikep996 said:

I developed my first two rolls of Ilford XP5 using Ilford's simplicity pack - negs came out perfectly.  I shot two rolls of Ilford FP4, developed it with Df96 multi bath and they were so dense as to be unusable.  I'm sure I did something wrong in the processing so I just shot another roll and will process it with the 96, re-reading the instructions to see if I can understand what I did wrong.  

 

Oh - a question, I have the Paterson double 35mm tank.  Neither reel is able to accept a full 36exp roll (37 images) of film.  In each case the reels jammed before the entire roll was loaded.  Is that normally a problem?  I had SS reels/tanks in all my dark room life previously so this is the first time I have used the Paterson (or any) plastic reels with the "automatic feed."

It's a long time since I did developing but I always used Patterson equipment and never had a problem loading 36/37 shot films onto them. You need to make sure the reels are completely dry though before loading them any moisture in the rails can bind the film up as the emulsion gets damp and sticks. I was regularly loading a 5 roll tank with 35mm and double rolls of 120.

[jankap]

Dense? Time, temperature ... Also you should work fast from the developer to the stop bath. Are both films equally dense?

Loading? Topsy´s advice! But you can perhaps ignore the loading instruction, fasten the start of the film to the axis, and wind it from outside into the spool. 

Film development is a tricky business if one does not do it often.

 

[Tom R]

The OP is using DF96? IIRC this is a monobath? If so then I'm not sure that anything other than temperature might explain the "density" problem.  (But, I don't know for certain; I don't use that developer.) I believe that mono-bath developers are designed to naturally develop to exhaustion before allowing the fixer to do its job--perhaps some chemists on this site can comment on this. I am also uncertain that agitation is problematic other than too little agitation might result in bromide drag.

Lots of good advice here about making absolutely certain that your reels are DRY before attempting to load them. I would offer an additional suggestion (being a long-time steel user now using Paterson), make sure that the film curl is "natural" meaning that your film has no reverse curl or even shows a desire to run straight. I try to cut the leader about 10 cm from the tip and, with my M4-P bodies, that's where the film resumes its "natural" curl--which is to say towards the emulsion. Finally, rotate the reels slowly. 

I have also used film leader retrievers to retrieve the leader, trim it, nip the freshly cut edges to make sure it has no surface that might grab. Then I place everything in a changing bag and load the reel(s).

I've also seen online videos where the freshly trimmed leader can be "started" on the reel before placing everything in a changing bag. You would then pull down a run of film (whatever is possible given the constraints of the workspace), perform six or seven full twists, reach down and gently pull out another run of film and repeat this process. Upon feeling the "bitter end," i.e., the cassette has the last bit of film you reach down with scissors and cut straight across the cassette's opening and in two or three twists of the reel all film should be in-place and ready to go. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Tom R

[logan2z]

3 minutes ago, Tom R said:

I have also used film leader retrievers to retrieve the leader, trim it, nip the freshly cut edges to make sure it has no surface that might grab. Then I place everything in a changing bag and load the reel(s).

I've also seen online videos where the freshly trimmed leader can be "started" on the reel before placing everything in a changing bag. You would then perform six or seven full twists, reach down and gently pull out another run of film and repeat this process. Upon feeling the "bitter end," i.e., the cassette has the last bit of film you reach down with scissors and cut straight across the cassette's opening and in two or three twists of the reel all film should be in-place and ready to go. 

I used a film retriever for a while but now I just listen for the film to leave the takeup spool/tulip when rewinding it and stop before the end of the film disappears inside the cassette.

I've also seen videos that show the film being started on the reel before everything is placed in the changing bag.  I use Jobo reels and there's no 'clutch' to prevent the film from slipping back off the reel which could easily happen when putting everything into the bag.  Instead, I take a scrap 1-2" piece of film, load it onto the reel before placing it into the changing bag and this helps me find the entry notches for the film on the reel.  Once I've found the notches I pull out the scrap piece of film and continue loading the film from the cassette.  Easier than blindly feeling around on the reel for the notches.

[johnwolf]

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1 hour ago, Mikep996 said:

I developed my first two rolls of Ilford XP5 using Ilford's simplicity pack - negs came out perfectly.  I shot two rolls of Ilford FP4, developed it with Df96 multi bath and they were so dense as to be unusable.  I'm sure I did something wrong in the processing so I just shot another roll and will process it with the 96, re-reading the instructions to see if I can understand what I did wrong.  

 

Oh - a question, I have the Paterson double 35mm tank.  Neither reel is able to accept a full 36exp roll (37 images) of film.  In each case the reels jammed before the entire roll was loaded.  Is that normally a problem?  I had SS reels/tanks in all my dark room life previously so this is the first time I have used the Paterson (or any) plastic reels with the "automatic feed."

You should not have a problem with extra exposures in a Paterson reel. The reels must be COMPLETELY dry or the film will bind. Even then I found random binding.
However, once I started feeding strips from the other end, that issue went away. 

[Huss]

2 minutes ago, johnwolf said:

You should not have a problem with extra exposures in a Paterson reel. The reels must be COMPLETELY dry or the film will bind. Even then I found random binding.
However, once I started feeding strips from the other end, that issue went away. 

This is exactly the answer.  I use Arista plastic reels, and I found that if you have a camera that feeds the film the opposite way it comes out of the camera i.e when you have the camera back open and wind the film, you will see it winds to the left (clockwise), then it bends the film against the natural curl it took in the film cassette.  Cameras like Leica Ms, almost all 'old' film SLRs like Nikon F3, F2 etc.

But auto load cameras - like P&S, Leica R8/9, Nikon F4/5/6 have a more modern feeding mechanism where the film is wound in the camera in the same direction as it is wound in the cassette.  All those load fine from the front end of the film strip on the plastic reels.

[Huss]

Re. using DF96 monobath - I use it all time with all sorts of films, with no issues apart from 2 types of rare film.  Adox CMS20 and Silberra Orto.  All other B&W films have been fine, including everything from Ilford.

If your negs were too dense, you overexposed your film in camera.

There is a big DF96 thread on photrio here:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/cinestill-df96-monobath.174699/page-31#post-2603054

[Tom R]

Very interesting and good to know!

The few times that I've had any issue with plastic reels (Paterson, Omega, etc.) I suspect (in retrospect) has been on account of film curl. So, for some time, I've re-wound the film and waited at least a day for the curl to return to normal and then loaded from the "front edge." Now, instead of having to wait a day or so, just load everything into the changing bag, pop the cassette, trim the leader, then trim the spool-end and feed that into the reel. Brilliant and thanks.

[Pyrogallol]

3 hours ago, Mikep996 said:

I developed my first two rolls of Ilford XP5 using Ilford's simplicity pack - negs came out perfectly.  I shot two rolls of Ilford FP4, developed it with Df96 multi bath and they were so dense as to be unusable.  I'm sure I did something wrong in the processing so I just shot another roll and will process it with the 96, re-reading the instructions to see if I can understand what I did wrong.  

 

Oh - a question, I have the Paterson double 35mm tank.  Neither reel is able to accept a full 36exp roll (37 images) of film.  In each case the reels jammed before the entire roll was loaded.  Is that normally a problem?  I had SS reels/tanks in all my dark room life previously so this is the first time I have used the Paterson (or any) plastic reels with the "automatic feed."

Loading a full 36 into a Peterson spool can be tricky, some spools work better than others. That is why I reduced my home rolled films to 30 exposures in the 1970’s, which I still do.

[Mikep996]

"

If your negs were too dense, you overexposed your film in camera."

When I said "too dense" I based that on what I saw coming out of the scanner.  When I actually looked at the negatives next to Ilford-developed negatives they looked essentially the same!  I put the HP5 negs in the scanner - with silverfast set to Ilford HP5, they were fine; I put the FP4 negs in the scanner with the silverfast set to Fp4  - even with the Silverfast "exposure" ramped up to +3 they were still very dark.

Finally I turned off the film brand/type dialog in Silverfast and set it to "automatic," (no film type selected).  Scans came out great!  I don't really understand it but, oh well, all is fine - I'll just leave it on automatic!

 

Good tip re the direction of the film curve for loading into the plastic reels.  Quick question, did I understand correctly that it works best to load the film from the spool end, rather than the leader end?  If so, then you are pulling all the film out of the canister while in the changing bag, cutting off the end at the spool and feeding that end into the reel?    A changing bag is another new thing for me...kinds miss my darkroom!  

[logan2z]

16 minutes ago, Mikep996 said:

"

If your negs were too dense, you overexposed your film in camera."

When I said "too dense" I based that on what I saw coming out of the scanner.  When I actually looked at the negatives next to Ilford-developed negatives they looked essentially the same!  I put the HP5 negs in the scanner - with silverfast set to Ilford HP5, they were fine; I put the FP4 negs in the scanner with the silverfast set to Fp4  - even with the Silverfast "exposure" ramped up to +3 they were still very dark.

Finally I turned off the film brand/type dialog in Silverfast and set it to "automatic," (no film type selected).  Scans came out great!  I don't really understand it but, oh well, all is fine - I'll just leave it on automatic!

You know what doesn't have a myriad of settings that screw up your images?  An enlarger.   Get thee to a darkroom!  

[Huss]

1 hour ago, Mikep996 said:

"

 

 

Good tip re the direction of the film curve for loading into the plastic reels.  Quick question, did I understand correctly that it works best to load the film from the spool end, rather than the leader end?  If so, then you are pulling all the film out of the canister while in the changing bag, cutting off the end at the spool and feeding that end into the reel?    A changing bag is another new thing for me...kinds miss my darkroom!  

Yes, from the spool end if you are using a Leica M, or regular manual load film camera.  If you are using a P&S or other auto load, then from the leader end.

You will have to pull the film out of the cassette and cut it off to do that.  I use a changing bag.  When I pull it out I make sure to coil it in the direction it was bent in the cassette.

[Ouroboros]

I've always loaded 35mm films from the cassette, any type and any brand.  I  cut a slight radius across the leader between sprocket holes, feed the end into a Paterson spiral until it catches the ballbearings and then complete the spiral loading in a changing bag.  Whenever this technique is mentioned there will always be someone who has a meltdown about 'scratching the film' due to grit being trapped in the velvet light trap.  I've never scratched a film yet and I've been doing this way for around 50 years.

With regard to Paterson spiral loading problems, apart from the absolute need to make sure the spiral is dry before loading as previously mentioned, it sometimes happens that residue can build up in the spiral rails and causes the film to jam.  Resist he temptation to try to force the film through the spiral, it will only damage the edge of the film and make it impossible to load.  Your best option in the event of a loading jam is to remove the film completely from the spiral and gently wind it back into the cassette so that you can try again by repeating the process with a different spiral.

If you start to have spiral loading jams, try giving the offending spiral a good 24 hours soak in a solution of bleach but be sure to wash the spiral thoroughly and dry it completely before using it again.

 

  

[logan2z]

16 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

I've always loaded 35mm films from the cassette, any type and any brand.  I  cut a slight radius across the leader between sprocket holes, feed the end into a Paterson spiral until it catches the ballbearings and then complete the spiral loading in a changing bag.  Whenever this technique is mentioned there will always be someone who has a meltdown about 'scratching the film' due to grit being trapped in the velvet light trap.  I've never scratched a film yet and I've been doing this way for around 50 years.

With regard to Paterson spiral loading problems, apart from the absolute need to make sure the spiral is dry before loading as previously mentioned, it sometimes happens that residue can build up in the spiral rails and causes the film to jam.  Resist he temptation to try to force the film through the spiral, it will only damage the edge of the film and make it impossible to load.  Your best option in the event of a loading jam is to remove the film completely from the spiral and gently wind it back into the cassette so that you can try again by repeating the process with a different spiral.

If you start to have spiral loading jams, try giving the offending spiral a good 24 hours soak in a solution of bleach but be sure to wash the spiral thoroughly and dry it completely before using it again.

 

  

If there was grit trapped in the velvet light trap then it likely would have scratched the film when it was drawn out of the cassette and when it was wound back into the cassette in camera - unless, of course, this grit was deposited after the cassette was removed from the camera.

I've been loading film onto Jobo reels by drawing it out of the cassette and have never scratched a roll.  I find the film much easier to deal with this way rather than removing it from the cassette and letting it unwind itself inside the changing bag.  Those cassette edges can be sharp once you pop the tops off too! 

[Ouroboros]

6 minutes ago, logan2z said:

If there was grit trapped in the velvet light trap then it likely would have scratched the film when it was drawn out of the cassette and when it was wound back into the cassette in camera - unless, of course, this grit was deposited after the cassette was removed from the camera.

I've been loading film onto Jobo reels by drawing it out of the cassette and have never scratched a roll.  I find the film much easier to deal with this way rather than removing it from the cassette and letting it unwind itself inside the changing bag.  Those cassette edges can be sharp once you pop the tops off too! 

I prefer to keep beer bottle openers for their intended use!  Never could see the point of them personally, or getting the film leader started on the spiral inside a changing bag, but as long as a method works that's all that matters.

[LocalHero1953]

My tip: waste a film by using it to practice loading the spirals in daylight until it becomes familiar muscle memory. 

From time to time I soak my spirals in vinegar or citric acid to remove any build up of scale from hard water. 

I load my spirals entirely in the bag - i don’t start it outside. I use a bottle opener to open the canister, then just snip off the leader (blunt ended scissors so as not to puncture the changing bag!) and feed the leader end directly into the spiral. I have never tried to shape the end. 

I have a Paterson double tank with plastic spirals. 

Once you get the knack of it you’ll wonder why you ever had a problem. 

[cboy]

Op 2c advice. I'd advise bulk batch  scanning with a flatbed, which I use epson v700 to speed up the process especially when scanning several rolls.

There's no getting around practicing using a changing bag and setting / organising the elements within the bag before you begin. You develop a feel for it and hands require some muscle memory to slide the film into the spool. Need to do a dry run.

But I never found hybrid developing / scanning as enjoyable as a getting into a darkroom imo

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[MarkP]

On 10/26/2022 at 8:46 PM, pippy said:

I know you wrote that you wouldn't go into details but I will ask you if you would care to do so. What, specifically, did you find to be more enjoyable about the shooting experience? 

If I may add:

Nothing focuses the mind more for planning the photo than only having 36 shots in the canister, or even less with MF.

I also find that with digital I’m often trying to get the technically perfect shot, eeking the last drop if IQ out of the sensor and lens.  With film I have no such concerns.