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Trading Q2 for M system - any reason to not get M11?


TheEyesHaveIt

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Thank you all for the great suggestions. I like a lighter kit, so I wouldn't keep the Q2 and take it along as a second camera body anywhere. I'd get a 28mm (or wider preferably) lens  for the M instead. Is there anything better for a new M user with the M11 than say getting an M10-R or even M10-P? I never really shoot so much that I worry about running out of battery before the day is done. I hear a lot about how 60mpx is harder for sharpness and focus due to the sensitivity towards even slight movements / camera shake? I know the black M11 is lighter, which has its appeal to me given I like a light carry, but is it worth ~$1800? I can get an M11 for about $7k - I imagine it'll hold its value well if I don't like it?

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5 minutes ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

Thank you all for the great suggestions. I like a lighter kit, so I wouldn't keep the Q2 and take it along as a second camera body anywhere. I'd get a 28mm (or wider preferably) lens  for the M instead. Is there anything better for a new M user with the M11 than say getting an M10-R or even M10-P? I never really shoot so much that I worry about running out of battery before the day is done. I hear a lot about how 60mpx is harder for sharpness and focus due to the sensitivity towards even slight movements / camera shake? I know the black M11 is lighter, which has its appeal to me given I like a light carry, but is it worth ~$1800? I can get an M11 for about $7k - I imagine it'll hold its value well if I don't like it?

So you love the Q2 except for the fixed focal length, but you’d consider buying an M11 with a 28mm lens?  Anything wider would not include frame lines for the M RF experience that many seek.
 

I think the least of your dilemma is determining M11 vs M10-R.

Jeff

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4 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

So you love the Q2 except for the fixed focal length, but you’d consider buying an M11 with a 28mm lens?  Anything wider would not include frame lines for the M RF experience that many seek.
 

I think the least of your dilemma is determining M11 vs M10-R.

Jeff

I don't understand your point. Getting a 28mm lens for a body that supports interchangeable lenses is getting around the issue of a fixed focal length camera. I never said I didn't like 28mm. 

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7 minutes ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

I don't understand your point. Getting a 28mm lens for a body that supports interchangeable lenses is getting around the issue of a fixed focal length camera. I never said I didn't like 28mm. 

Sure, but obviously not until you buy more lenses and, if wider is desired, you’ll likely not be using the RF alone.  

Jeff

 

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29 minutes ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

I hear a lot about how 60mpx is harder for sharpness and focus due to the sensitivity towards even slight movements / camera shake?

I wouldn't worry about this.

I have had every generation of Digital M since the M9 and have been using the M11 since its introduction in January. I can say that for me nothing about how I use the camera has changed and maybe if I was pixel peeping I would see a greater occurrence of motion blur, but its a non issue in day to day use.

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1 hour ago, Kwesi said:

I wouldn't worry about this.

I have had every generation of Digital M since the M9 and have been using the M11 since its introduction in January. I can say that for me nothing about how I use the camera has changed and maybe if I was pixel peeping I would see a greater occurrence of motion blur, but its a non issue in day to day use.

Appreciate that insight! I imagine the Visoflex can be added in the future if you need more precision. How do you like the colors of the M11 vs. the previous Ms?

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1 hour ago, cbgrey said:

Why is that? I've not used the Q2 much but find I struggle with the Visoflex2 on the M11. Trying to make it work better for me. 

 I assumed it was resolution, but maybe not. Whatever the case I find the Q2 EVF just fine and the visoflex 2 on the M11 to be frustratingly poor by comparison.

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19 minutes ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

Appreciate that insight! I imagine the Visoflex can be added in the future if you need more precision. How do you like the colors of the M11 vs. the previous Ms?

The M11 is like a chameleon in that it is capable of producing such a wide range of colors effortlessly.  Where the M240 and M10 struggled with reds the M11 has no trouble with it. It also amplifies the character of the lens that you are using much more so than with previous M's. I am really enjoying using my 1961 tele-elmarit 90 on the M11 and also my summicron rigid. the 50/1.4 ASPH is just phenomenal on the M11 but by far my favorite is the 28/2 v2 which I used almost exclusively for ten days in Greece last month

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Since the OP likes a lighter kit, you can consider getting the TTArtisan 28 f5.6 and maybe one of the 50 Summicrons (they always seem to be a good value for performance option). What the 28 5.6 lacks in perfection and light gathering ability, it gains in character and compactness in size and weight. That way, if you want the experience of shooting quickly with hyper focal distances, you can put the 28 on f8 and shoot away. Then you can use the 50 for more careful, deliberate shooting. If you want faster than that, I would recommend the Voigtlander 28 f2 asph for a good light weight lens, and maybe the 50 lux, but that is significantly heavier and costs significantly more. When you jump from a single lens camera to an M system, the place you will really end up spending money is on the multitude of lens options out there. You will feel like a kid in a candy store.

If you want a single-lens set up for now, go for the 35 Lux, many people’s “desert island lens,” including me. 

I have the M11 in silver because that was what was available, and it seems like every other M I have owned in terms of weight in actual use. I probably would have opted for the black if both were available, but I have no issues whatsoever, and in some ways the extra weight helps to balance some of the heavier lenses. (If anyone wants to trade a black for a silver M11 let me know because it doesn’t really matter to me — I should disclose however that I lost the European adapter somewhere in Switzerland, so it will not be a perfect swap, LOL.

And as to the question of whether there is a huge difference between the M10P, M10R and M11, I would say this: in terms of the experience of shooting them, all are about the same (I didn’t have the M10R but did have the M10M). With respect to image quality, the M240 did suffer a little with the reds, but was otherwise fine, and the M10 would be a modest improvement in image quality but with less battery power, and the M10R more improvement in highlight recovery. The M11 has the most headroom in terms of cropping, but really for me the most significant improvement was the USB charging and the redesigned battery/memory card system. In my opinion, the M10R is where you will get the most value for performance, but if money is not an issue, the M11 is probably my favorite overall. 

My initial point though was that you don’t HAVE to get an M11 to enjoy an M system. I had a blast with the M9 and every other M I have ever had the pleasure of using.

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29 minutes ago, augustwest100 said:

Since the OP likes a lighter kit, you can consider getting the TTArtisan 28 f5.6 and maybe one of the 50 Summicrons (they always seem to be a good value for performance option). What the 28 5.6 lacks in perfection and light gathering ability, it gains in character and compactness in size and weight. That way, if you want the experience of shooting quickly with hyper focal distances, you can put the 28 on f8 and shoot away. Then you can use the 50 for more careful, deliberate shooting. If you want faster than that, I would recommend the Voigtlander 28 f2 asph for a good light weight lens, and maybe the 50 lux, but that is significantly heavier and costs significantly more. When you jump from a single lens camera to an M system, the place you will really end up spending money is on the multitude of lens options out there. You will feel like a kid in a candy store.

If you want a single-lens set up for now, go for the 35 Lux, many people’s “desert island lens,” including me. 

I have the M11 in silver because that was what was available, and it seems like every other M I have owned in terms of weight in actual use. I probably would have opted for the black if both were available, but I have no issues whatsoever, and in some ways the extra weight helps to balance some of the heavier lenses. (If anyone wants to trade a black for a silver M11 let me know because it doesn’t really matter to me — I should disclose however that I lost the European adapter somewhere in Switzerland, so it will not be a perfect swap, LOL.

And as to the question of whether there is a huge difference between the M10P, M10R and M11, I would say this: in terms of the experience of shooting them, all are about the same (I didn’t have the M10R but did have the M10M). With respect to image quality, the M240 did suffer a little with the reds, but was otherwise fine, and the M10 would be a modest improvement in image quality but with less battery power, and the M10R more improvement in highlight recovery. The M11 has the most headroom in terms of cropping, but really for me the most significant improvement was the USB charging and the redesigned battery/memory card system. In my opinion, the M10R is where you will get the most value for performance, but if money is not an issue, the M11 is probably my favorite overall. 

My initial point though was that you don’t HAVE to get an M11 to enjoy an M system. I had a blast with the M9 and every other M I have ever had the pleasure of using.

I was thinking of a 28mm Elmarit and a 50mm Summilux as a great two lens solution. Gives me the wide angle of the 28 for walk around and a 50 for reach and shallower DoF.

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23 hours ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

I have owned the Q2 for a few years now and it is easily my favorite camera (I have a Sony kit as well but almost never take it out). I just love the feel when shooting with it, often shoot in manual mode, and while I love post-processing, have noticed I end up doing a lot less of it with the Q2 RAWs - they just are great SOOC to me. [...] Leaving cost aside for a moment, is there any reason NOT to get an M11 for a new M convert? In terms of colors or usability?

I would not expect the best SOOC results from the M11 or any other digital M cameras. But you say you like those of the Q2 so perhaps you will like those of the M11 as well. Only way to know is to try the beast in person since most pics you can see here have been tweaked in PP.

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17 minutes ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

I was thinking of a 28mm Elmarit and a 50mm Summilux as a great two lens solution. Gives me the wide angle of the 28 for walk around and a 50 for reach and shallower DoF.

That’s a great two lens kit. The Voigtlander Ultron 28 II is a very cost effective and small 28 that has great character and image quality, that you would do well to consider.  Personally I don’t think I could part with the Q2 despite having an M11 (along with 18,21,28,35,35,35,50,50mm lenses…). The Q2 is still the only “do it all” camera for me with AF and video, but it maintains a great manual shooting experience as well. I lean on it heavily for family stuff, and will for travel when I get to do that again. 
 

The only reason to not get an M11 IMHO is cost… if you are ok with the price, it is the digital M to get. Unless you’re REALLY attached to a baseplate. 

Edited by matted
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On 10/23/2022 at 5:22 PM, TheEyesHaveIt said:

Leaving cost aside for a moment, is there any reason NOT to get an M11 for a new M convert? In terms of colors or usability

I haven't experienced any reason to avoid the M11 in terms of colors or usability.

I shoot DNG and usually use Adobe or Cobalt Imaging profiles. Lightroom has a "Profile M11" that I assume emulates the in-camera JPGs, but I don't use it. Check out DP Review's site if you want to download a bunch of free M10P/M10R/M11 DNG raw files. That might give you a better feel for if you need to do a lot of editing, like the colors, etc.

Usability is subjective, but I found no reason to go backwards once I tried the M11 menu system and buttons. I really think this is the most usable digital M. To be clear though I don't feel I was every limited by the M10R menus or buttons. 

Probably the biggest usability improvement is a base ISO of 64 for those that like to shoot fast lenses in bright conditions. I'd say this is the biggest usability improvement because you don't have to bother with ND filters. That and the much better battery life if you use Live View.

 

 

Edited by Crem
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7 hours ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

I was thinking of a 28mm Elmarit and a 50mm Summilux as a great two lens solution. Gives me the wide angle of the 28 for walk around and a 50 for reach and shallower DoF.

I use the M11 with a 50 Lux asph and I'm very happy. I've been through a few cameras over the last few yrs, SL2s and its lenses were too cumbersome, I wasn't too keen on the Q2 digital rendering, like a smart phone on steroids to my eye plus I missed the 50 framing. M11 colours are fine, the files are so easy to work with and no blown highlights thanks to the electronic shutter. I've used a few iterations of the M, adored the M9 with original sensor but the M11 is the best digital M, so far, imo. 

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3 hours ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

I’m convinced! Going to try and order one from the UK to save $2k+.

Good call! I was in the same position as you. Love the Q2. Not fussed about 28mm focal length but frustrated about the size of the lens and the inability to remove it for packing in a non-camera weekend bag. I decided to get an M11 for the smaller lenses and the ability to mount a short tele ( a 90mm) which, with the excellent cropability, I reckon would give me the equivalent of a 200mm, esp with software like Topaz. I chose it against a M10-R because I prefer the Q2 style bottom plate and battery  

I was going to trade the Q2 in but at the last minute decided against it. It made the purchase much more expensive but, as you said, it gives me 28mm and AF when I want. That meant I decided to get a 50mm Summicron to go with the M11 because it offered a focal length that was a worthwhile difference. No regrets so far although I was very familiar with using rangefinders. In terms of lenses, I’m thinking I should build a small travel kit based on a 35mm and a 90mm and not bother with the 50mm, but that’s the subject of a whole different thread…

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5 hours ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

I’m convinced! Going to try and order one from the UK to save $2k+.

I'm curious how your UK ordering experience will go if you end up trying it. Do you have to deal with import taxes? I'm definitely looking forward to hearing about the experience as I've avoided it do to the unknowns (taxes and returns mostly).

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4 hours ago, Crem said:

I'm curious how your UK ordering experience will go if you end up trying it. Do you have to deal with import taxes? I'm definitely looking forward to hearing about the experience as I've avoided it do to the unknowns (taxes and returns mostly).

I'll let you know. I just wired the money over this morning. I believe import taxes are supposed to be on lenses, not cameras - but it all seems like wheel of fortune on if they check and charge you. There's no taxes for US buyers - so I'm literally saving $2500 vs buying it from B&H - and even vs. buying it used from a third-party (somebody quoted me $8300 locally this morning).

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24 minutes ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

I'll let you know. I just wired the money over this morning. I believe import taxes are supposed to be on lenses, not cameras - but it all seems like wheel of fortune on if they check and charge you. There's no taxes for US buyers - so I'm literally saving $2500 vs buying it from B&H - and even vs. buying it used from a third-party (somebody quoted me $8300 locally this morning).

Congrats! Definitely look forward to reading how it all works out. The nuances of import taxes is…. confusing. 

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