Trading Q2 for M system - any reason to not get M11?

[TheEyesHaveIt]

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Hi all,

I have owned the Q2 for a few years now and it is easily my favorite camera (I have a Sony kit as well but almost never take it out). I just love the feel when shooting with it, often shoot in manual mode, and while I love post-processing, have noticed I end up doing a lot less of it with the Q2 RAWs - they just are great SOOC to me. It is my preferred travel camera (I like to travel light) and took it all over Greece and London a couple years ago. The ONE thing I feel limited by however is the fixed focal length - sometimes I want something longer or a little wider (especially for travel / cityscape photography). So, I've been thinking of moving to the M system for many of the same benefits (lightweight, that connection and feel when shooting, the colors and output).

Leaving cost aside for a moment, is there any reason NOT to get an M11 for a new M convert? In terms of colors or usability?

When costs are taken into account, a used M10-P or the M10-R are appealing, but I plan to keep the camera for at least 5 years and would be ok spending more for a "better" body (though I know I need to spend my money more on the lenses). I expect some cost can be mitigated via the sale of the Q2 as well.

Cheers!

[Jeff S]

Have you used an M?  Not everyone bonds with the RF experience.  You can rent an M11 (or other M models) and a lens or two. Note, too, that the M system is not weather sealed, although fairly robust. 
 

https://www.lensrentals.com/rent/leica-m11

Jeff

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[TheEyesHaveIt]

4 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Have you used an M?  Not everyone bonds with the RF experience.  You can rent an M11 (or other M models) and a lens or two. Note, too, that the M system is not weather sealed, although fairly robust. 
 

https://www.lensrentals.com/rent/leica-m11

Jeff

No, I've only briefly tried the M a few years ago at the Leica Store. I imagine I will need time to get used to the RF focusing - but personally, I feel it's a bit more "connected" to the shooting experience than using just an EVF and focus peaking (IMO). A 7 day rental from LensRentals is already approaching $1k.

Edited October 24, 2022 by TheEyesHaveIt

[Jeff S]

21 minutes ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

 A 7 day rental from LensRentals is already approaching $1k.

Sure, matter of priorities.  I have tens of thousands invested in Leica gear, not to mention significant costs associated with processing hardware and software, printing, framing, travel and more.  Before I would switch to a totally different and expensive system, I’d want to feel pretty confident.  One could also demo (talk to a dealer) or rent a less expensive M model (the experience is similar), or buy an earlier version from a reputable dealer and not lose too much on sale or trade.  

I’d trust that more than relying on survey responses from strangers, especially given opinions all over the map regarding the M11 (search many other threads).  But YMMV.

Jeff

Edited October 24, 2022 by Jeff S

[GFW2-SCUSA]

Renting for a $1,000. does put a damper on things.  But you can rent an M`10 and a Sigma 24mm for a week for about $500. and that would give you a good chance to decide if the rangefinder - M experience is for you or not. I'm not sure I feel more connected with my M rangefinder than with the EVF of the SL2 but it is really quite a difference. There is another option and that is the CL which is a wonderful camera small and great for travel and uses L mount or with an adaptor, M lenses.  Even though Leica has made the mistake to dropping the camera, it is available and excellent.

Personally I'm not sure I'd buy the M11 for starters. A good used M10 is a wonderful camera and will last a long, long time! You can put the money saved into a fine lens.

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by GFW2-SCUSA
Jeff and I are saying about the same thing at about the same time!

[augustwest100]

If you pick up a used M240, you will get 80% of the M experience for a lot less money. You will also be able to trade in for a newer model if you love the experience.  It will not be the end of your journey. I went from M9 to M240 to M10 to M10M to M11. Perhaps the M10R is a better balance of new tech but it comes at a much higher price. You will need money as you start to experiment with lenses!

Good luck with the decision!

[SiggiGun]

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I think the Qx and the SLx  are 2 modern complementary camera systems. M is different. Buy never a M camera without have played with this for a longer period. M is still the right tool if you like the rangefinder and you need more than lenses (or you own M lenses). I have an M for more than 40 years. As a result I have NOT added a Q but an SL2. Or If I had no a long rangefinder experience, I had certainly taken a Q.

[Tom Johnston]

in the past, there were dealers who would apply the rental charge toward the purchase. 

[SJH]

Many people follow this path!!

Just a suggestion but if you do go down the M11 route you could also purchase the new Visoflex which has the same resolution as the Q2 and may well have the same parts. You could use this in your transition and it's very useful for lenses outside the 28 to 50mm range.

Leica's summary below:

With the evolution of the Leica M comes new accessories to enhance the rangefinder experience. The new Visoflex 2 electronic viewfinder features 3.7-megapixel resolution to provide outstanding image control in Live View mode. Encased in a metal exterior, the Visoflex 2 perfectly matches the M11 in terms of design and functionality. Full-frame viewing and the precise focusing of Leica lenses is supported by the Visoflex 2’s large diopter adjustment range of -4 to +3 and 90 degree tilt function.

 

[jaapv]

7 minutes ago, SJH said:

ust a suggestion but if you do go down the M11 route you could also purchase the new Visoflex which has the same resolution as the Q2 and may well have the same parts. You could use this in your transition and it's very useful for lenses outside the 28 to 50mm range.

 

I don't think that  is a good idea - it leaves people stuck in old habits. and flattens but lengthens the learning curve. A bit like nicotine patches to try and stop smoking.

[M11 for me]

You write that you feel limited by the one focal length of the Q. That is certainly a limiting factor. Considering the large amount of pixels and the in camera crop options things might look a bit different. When you look at your images most time only on a screen (no big prints) then even the 75mm crop is usable and the quality is good enough. This means that you have actually 28 to 75mm available on your Q2.

In case you have reserves about image quality when croping so much then for me the M gives you much more flexibility after all. When in former years (with the M10) I normally had my 21mm then 28mm and 50mm as standard travel set this has changed with the 60MPix of the M11. I have adapted my habits. I easily like to crop by 1,3 (the M11 has built in crop mode 1.3 and 1.8). When applying only the 1.3 crop then my 21mm lens renders a field of view of the 28mm so I need no 28mm native any more. So my second lens is the 35mm which brings the fov of a 50mm (exactly 46mm) lens when using 1.3 crop. My third lens now is the 75mm which brings a fov of a 95mm lens with 1.3 crop. That means that when traveling with the 3 lenses I have 21mm, 28mm, 35mm, 46mm, 75mm and 95mm. I normally do not use 1.8x crop option.

When traveling I have normally the the 35mm lens mounted on the body whereas the 2 other lenses (plus spare battery) I have in a nice and quite small leather hip bag. I love my new configuration. Its light, small and versatile. 

So this is an argument for a change from Q2 to an M10. But I would not sell the Q2 as it is weather sealed and has AF and in many situations the Q2 is an even lighter and smaller alternative.

[SJH]

21 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I don't think that  is a good idea - it leaves people stuck in old habits. and flattens but lengthens the learning curve. A bit like nicotine patches to try and stop smoking.

I can understand that but it might help with very wide or telephotos the OP might be considering using e.g. I love the rangefinder experience but with my 21mm f3.8 and say my 50mm f1.2 Noctilux as it's ideal for certain situations. With the 21mm I can use the tilt for cityscapes etc and see the 21mm FoV, with the 50mm 1.2 it's great for getting precise focus. Equally it's brilliant when using the 35mm APO for utilising the close focus functionality.

I didn't bother using the previous version with my M10R/M as I'd come from learning to use a rangefinder with my M6 previously as it's resolution was terrible and the lag!! However, the new Visoflex seems to work and fits the M11 well, plus the image is stabilised which helps a lot.

Given the OP's user case is to be able to use a wider range of lenses I thought this might assist, albeit it probably wouldn't be permanently attached and like you I wouldn't advise that. Reading through Jono's review of the M11 and various posts he seems to have taken the same approach to me and has a used the Visoflex a fair bit but not for the majority of the time. Equally, whilst there isn't any definitive technical comparisons I'm aware of, the new Visoflex appears to use the innards from the Q2 - same resolution etc.

I've been using the M11 from launch day and I find that I probably use my Q2 a lot less as a result now, I'm glad I bought the Visoflex at the same time even though I'm a real rangefinder fan!!

[jaapv]

Certainly the Visoflex makes the camera suitable for long  and short focal lengths, macro, etc. but I don’t think that is very useful as a RF learning tool. 

[materry566]

If the money isn't a option, I'd keep the Q2 and adapt the M11 to your kit. I brought the Q2 1st while waiting for M11 to come.  Coming from the  Canon system, latest R5, I found starting with the Q2 and practicing more manual focus led to easy transition to RF style shooting. There was definitely a learning curve with the M11. But I'm glad I  kept my Q2. I find myself actually using Q2 as my daily walk around and M11 for my paid work. Being able to crop and still retain so much detail is amazing with both cameras.  I currently carry 50mm summulix and 90mm summarit with the M11. Using the visoflex allows for better focusing in my opinion but I still love rf style focusing also

Edited October 24, 2022 by materry566

[Gateway77]

For what it's worth -

I'd sell the Q2 and buy an M11 with a 28mm Cron lens and start with that, especially as you're already used to the field of view.

Once you've got used to the rangefinder's unique handling characteristics - (some great / some not) you would never realistically pick up the Q2 again.

If you like the experience you will soon be looking at 35mm / 50mm lenses etc.

If you don't like the experience, you'll be heading elsewhere anyway - but give yourself several months to both deal with the early frustration and then the potential delights.

NB. Visioflex 2 is good but miles off the clarity of the Q2 viewfinder - so will leave you feeling a bit lacklustre.

Also suggest you spend a few weeks avoiding the wider apertures (below f4) - just to avoid being disappointed at not instantly getting as sharp focusing as you can with the Q2.

Lastly don't expect anything to be 'better' - they're all great tools but just different in delivery.

Hope that helps.  Good luck and enjoy the journey.

[MrPaulK]

1 hour ago, Gateway77 said:

NB. Visioflex 2 is good but miles off the clarity of the Q2 viewfinder - so will leave you feeling a bit lacklustre.

I've not used the Q2, but the visioflex 2 has same pixel count and technology as the Q2 viewfinder, not sure why it would be less clear? At least wide open (on the M11), anyway.

[Herr Barnack]

Quote

I have owned the Q2 for a few years now and it is easily my favorite camera...

The Q2 is your favorite camera and you are going to trade it away?  Not a good idea IMHO. 

Rent an M11 for a day; if you like it and decide you want it - trade in the Sony kit on it.

[augustwest100]

4 hours ago, materry566 said:

If the money isn't a option, I'd keep the Q2 and adapt the M11 to your kit. I brought the Q2 1st while waiting for M11 to come.  Coming from the  Canon system, latest R5, I found starting with the Q2 and practicing more manual focus led to easy transition to RF style shooting. There was definitely a learning curve with the M11. But I'm glad I  kept my Q2. I find myself actually using Q2 as my daily walk around and M11 for my paid work. Being able to crop and still retain so much detail is amazing with both cameras.  I currently carry 50mm summulix and 90mm summarit with the M11. Using the visoflex allows for better focusing in my opinion but I still love rf style focusing also

I agree with this. The Q2 worms its way into virtually any setup! Taking an SL2S with a 75 APO for some close-up or compression? Bring along the Q2 for a wide-angle option instead of taking another SL lens! Taking an M-A loaded with Tri-X? Bring along the Q2 for some color or as a backup! Taking an M11 for the rangefinder experience? Bring along Q2 set up in auto-everything. But remember to change the first letter of the files so that your M files start with an "M" and your Q files start with a "Q." I've run into some problems with duplicate filenames from different cameras.  

This also adds emphasis to my earlier comment: for the price hit you might take trading in your Q2 and getting a recent M body, you can consider as an alternative just picking up an M240 and seeing how it goes for a while. 

[gotium]

2 hours ago, MrPaulK said:

I've not used the Q2, but the visioflex 2 has same pixel count and technology as the Q2 viewfinder, not sure why it would be less clear? At least wide open (on the M11), anyway.

Is that teally true? I find the Q2 evf vastly better than the visoflex 2 on an M11.

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[Kwesi]

16 hours ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

Hi all,

I have owned the Q2 for a few years now and it is easily my favorite camera (I have a Sony kit as well but almost never take it out). I just love the feel when shooting with it, often shoot in manual mode, and while I love post-processing, have noticed I end up doing a lot less of it with the Q2 RAWs - they just are great SOOC to me. It is my preferred travel camera (I like to travel light) and took it all over Greece and London a couple years ago. The ONE thing I feel limited by however is the fixed focal length - sometimes I want something longer or a little wider (especially for travel / cityscape photography). So, I've been thinking of moving to the M system for many of the same benefits (lightweight, that connection and feel when shooting, the colors and output).

Leaving cost aside for a moment, is there any reason NOT to get an M11 for a new M convert? In terms of colors or usability?

When costs are taken into account, a used M10-P or the M10-R are appealing, but I plan to keep the camera for at least 5 years and would be ok spending more for a "better" body (though I know I need to spend my money more on the lenses). I expect some cost can be mitigated via the sale of the Q2 as well.

Cheers!

My suggestion,

Sell the Sony stuff.

Buy the M11 with a 50

Hold onto the Q2 for now. This way you have a 28 and a 50. If you find you are using the Q2 less and less, then turn it into a lens for the M