Which older Monochrome to get for high iso low light landscape?

[Besprosvet]

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Hi,

After ruminating and reading so many threads, I decided to get my first Leica M, and, I want it to be a Monochrom. I'm quite satisfied (except for the harsh lens) by the rendering of the Fuji X100V when processed thru Capture One (for now...), and, in the rare case I need some more pop I still have Canon FF bodies plus the golden trio from EF L series (35 1.4 mark I, 50 1.2 and 85 1.2) I use for work. So I can skip a bayer sensor Leica M, at least for now.

My main goal is to enjoy taking photos in an essential way, I want to be forced to see the world in monochrome. And, I want to continue a project of mine with a camera specifically crafted for black and white: I usually take photos handheld, at very high iso at night.

So, around iso 6400/10000 which camera has a better rendering, and especially, less banding? Since I can't really afford the M10 Monochrome I'm deciding between the original Monochrome and the M type 246. The first is going around 3k euro the latter starts from 3.7k, at the moment at least. I don't know if usually they go for a bit less.

Any advice?

Thank you!

[a.noctilux]

Welcome here,

as very happy user of the two old Monochrom for many years, I cannot choose one of them myself.

Relying on results in ISO values I use, I'd say "same same" the lens in use can do the differences as we are using high performance sensors without bayer "filter", so

the "hues" (of each pixel = gray values)  are recorded and used less manipulated in software (no moirée for example).

 

The differences are mainly in use, 18M pixels not so difference than 24M pixels in real use, video, the liveview and great battery life can lead to newer M246.

Battery on MM1 can be a concern (or not depending on people and luck).

My MM1 had sensor corrosion but replaced "in time" by Leica, it's fine now.

 

For me each one is great for picture taking and b&w thinking (b&w mindset).

Edited October 20, 2022 by a.noctilux

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[Jeff S]

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2015/06/bw-iso-showdown-leica-m-monochrom-typ-246-vs-m-monochrom-m9-vs-m-typ-240/
 

Jeff

[Besprosvet]

47 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Welcome here,

as very happy user of the two old Monochrom for many years, I cannot choose one of them myself.

Relying on results in ISO values I use, I'd say "same same" the lens in use can do the differences as we are using high performance sensors without bayer "filter", so

the "hues" (of each pixel = gray values)  are recorded and used less manipulated in software (no moirée for example).

 

The differences are mainly in use, 18M pixels not so difference than 24M pixels in real use, video, the liveview and great battery life can lead to newer M246.

Battery on MM1 can be a concern (or not depending on people and luck).

My MM1 had sensor corrosion but replaced "in time" by Leica, it's fine now.

 

For me each one is great for picture taking and b&w thinking (b&w mindset).

Interesting from a user perspective of both cameras. My concerns are more on the usability, like which one takes less time: to wake up from sleeping mode? To turn on when it's off? Given the fact that with the original I'd have to embrace the buffer annoyance, which would be ok for me. I've read people complaining about banding with the M9 sensor with certain sd card (???)

And, as a video enthusiast: do the Monochrom videos from the 246 look better than any others taken with regular cameras and converted in bw? That would be a big plus for me.

Thank you

46 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2015/06/bw-iso-showdown-leica-m-monochrom-typ-246-vs-m-monochrom-m9-vs-m-typ-240/
 

Jeff

Thank you for the link. It's unbelievable how the M 240 can fight the Monochroms, at least at low iso. I can tell that there's a big difference between the original M and the M240M in how they handle high sensitivities, that said, the M240M looks like a camera with one rendering throughout the values, the original Monochrom looks like two cameras in one. One with more smeared shadows and "pleasant" noise, and another one sharp as hell with great shadows detail. I see no banding in any case, at least from this test.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Besprosvet

[Jeff S]

The M10 Monochrom is still the king of Leica high ISO…

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2020/05/bw-iso-showdown-2020-leica-m10-monochrom-vs-m-monochrom-typ-246-vs-m10-p-vs-sl2/

 

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2021/02/bw-iso-showdown-2021-leica-q2-monochrom-vs-m10-monochrom-vs-q2-vs-m10-r/

Jeff

[a.noctilux]

For video, only M246 can do.

I don't use video features, so I can not comment.

With same lens, the mono files are not much different.

Good lens stay good on the two Monochroms.

Soso lens stay soso = why I said lens is more important than choosing one of those.

[Besprosvet]

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26 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

For video, only M246 can do.

I don't use video features, so I can not comment.

With same lens, the mono files are not much different.

Good lens stay good on the two Monochroms.

Soso lens stay soso = why I said lens is more important than choosing one of those.

And regarding start up times and waking up from sleeping mode? Which one is faster?

[pegelli]

I made a similar choice a few month ago, I couldn't justify the M10M and looking over many, many images between the MM1 and the M246M I found for me it's more the lens/photographer/PP skills than camera/sensor attributes. Some people rave about the MM1 CCD sensor (vs. CMOS in the M246M) but I couldn't see it. That doesn't mean it isn't there but my eyes are not well trained enough to see it. Most important consideration (also to do with my eyes) is that the M246M has live view and an external viewfinder possibility (I still have an EVF2 from Olympus) and I find a split image focussing with a 90 and 135 mm too much "hit and miss" that having that back-up is useful for me, since those are focal length I like using.

For high ISO banding I use Topaz denoise AI but after this treatment blend it with the un-denoised image such that it only affects the darkest areas, otherwise I find the rendering gets too "plasticky" So I do enough dark area denoise to remove the banding and leave "unbanded" noise present in other parts of the image which doesn't bother me.

A question on your use case which is high iso/low light landscape, isn't it possible to use a tripod (or other support) and increase shutter time to reduce iso, or are there too many moving objects in your landscapes that this is not a feasible option?

[Besprosvet]

20 minutes ago, pegelli said:

I made a similar choice a few month ago, I couldn't justify the M10M and looking over many, many images between the MM1 and the M246M I found for me it's more the lens/photographer/PP skills than camera/sensor attributes. Some people rave about the MM1 CCD sensor (vs. CMOS in the M246M) but I couldn't see it. That doesn't mean it isn't there but my eyes are not well trained enough to see it. Most important consideration (also to do with my eyes) is that the M246M has live view and an external viewfinder possibility (I still have an EVF2 from Olympus) and I find a split image focussing with a 90 and 135 mm too much "hit and miss" that having that back-up is useful for me, since those are focal length I like using.

For high ISO banding I use Topaz denoise AI but after this treatment blend it with the un-denoised image such that it only affects the darkest areas, otherwise I find the rendering gets too "plasticky" So I do enough dark area denoise to remove the banding and leave "unbanded" noise present in other parts of the image which doesn't bother me.

A question on your use case which is high iso/low light landscape, isn't it possible to use a tripod (or other support) and increase shutter time to reduce iso, or are there too many moving objects in your landscapes that this is not a feasible option?

Hi, thank you for the insight about the banding reduction, t happens when pushing shadows at 12500 or even when exposing well at lower values? You use the 246 right?

Regarding tripods, I just hate using them, I like being fast (and light) when I shoot, plus, I kinda like the extreme/grainy look with really dark shadows, at night I like taking stuff like this. Until now for such project I used a Pana GX1 with a small pancake, I enjoy pushing gear beyond the limit, with a tripod things look boring to me.

For this reason I might even enjoy more the "inferior" original Monochrome for high iso, but yes, live view with longer or ultra wide lenses is interesting as well. Though choice. I might even get back to the Pana for this specific project, since I kinda love how the image degrades.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Besprosvet

[a.noctilux]

1 hour ago, Besprosvet said:

And regarding start up times and waking up from sleeping mode? Which one is faster?

Well, I can not answer really.

Never complain the "slowness" of each.

With the MM1, about one or two seconds from sleep, quick enough for me but may be too long for some.

The long battery life of M246 not needing to go to sleep, so always on when I'm in photographic moments.

Having another battery in my pocket that I rarely use is to have peace of mind.

[pegelli]

12 hours ago, Besprosvet said:

Hi, thank you for the insight about the banding reduction, t happens when pushing shadows at 12500 or even when exposing well at lower values? You use the 246 right?

 

I've only seen banding at 12500 or 25000 but I'm not a shadow pusher. Some people have reported it at lower iso but for me there's 12500 and 25000 shots where I don't see it.

Another way to reduce banding is sometimes just dropping the black point and make it all black and also in my opinion the impact and mood of an image is way more important than so-called technical imperfection like noise and banding.

 

[Besprosvet]

On 10/20/2022 at 11:25 PM, a.noctilux said:

Well, I can not answer really.

Never complain the "slowness" of each.

With the MM1, about one or two seconds from sleep, quick enough for me but may be too long for some.

The long battery life of M246 not needing to go to sleep, so always on when I'm in photographic moments.

Having another battery in my pocket that I rarely use is to have peace of mind.

Hi, I have another question. After looking at plenty of samples from both cameras I have the perception that images from the original Monochrom render better the upper part of the histogram (highlights), giving more contrast. As an example: high key portraiture, when the skin is vaguely overexposed but still within the DR, in this scenario M246 seems a bit "flat" in the upper part of the exposure, is it just my impression or you noticed the same by using them? Thanks

Edited October 24, 2022 by Besprosvet

[a.noctilux]

My answer is simple the users own skill , never the gear's "fault".

To be more explicit ...

- knowing the Monochrom behavior is something to learn to make the best from the gear,

I only learned once 👍

- with my first Monochrom I rely a lot at first on the DNG histogram very useful to learn then, with time I know the sensor's behavior

- this " sensor knowledge" applied to the M246 and using colored filter was largely enough to have the kind of pictures I want

- with LV on the M246 shortened my learning time using colored filters, not possible with MM1

- maybe I'm not picky enough to "see" the two types of rendering, I accept the fact that they are different in some features, but the final results can be tailored

to my desire, that's the most important for me.

[Besprosvet]

41 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

My answer is simple the users own skill , never the gear's "fault".

To be more explicit ...

- knowing the Monochrom behavior is something to learn to make the best from the gear,

I only learned once 👍

- with my first Monochrom I rely a lot at first on the DNG histogram very useful to learn then, with time I know the sensor's behavior

- this " sensor knowledge" applied to the M246 and using colored filter was largely enough to have the kind of pictures I want

- with LV on the M246 shortened my learning time using colored filters, not possible with MM1

- maybe I'm not picky enough to "see" the two types of rendering, I accept the fact that they are different in some features, but the final results can be tailored

to my desire, that's the most important for me.

Thanks for the reply.

"but the final results can be tailored to my desire", this is reassuring, the idea that I can get the same result from any of those.

But I'll be more direct: I want to take photos with the same "mood" of those one I took with a Pana GX1 (usually at iso 3200) and the 20mm pancake. Here are some links:

https://fuorisposto.tumblr.com/post/142121995070/light-filled-eyes-capri-22-gennaio

https://fuorisposto.tumblr.com/post/146656029385/changing-mood-by-faraglioni-22-febbraio-capri

https://fuorisposto.tumblr.com/post/142298188685/falling-on-a-dirty-black-carpet-25-gennaio

I know I can always use the GX1, since it works for me, but I'd like to experience that stuff with a Leica. Also because I averagely change a GX1 every two years since they're poorly built and before or after I'll have to give up that lovely camera for good. According to you, the gritty original Monochrome punch is necessary or I can easily replicate that look also with the 246?

[a.noctilux]

Those images "moods" from your links are doable with any of the Monochrom.

You seem to have good eyes, and mostly you do know what you want.

 

My first advice is take time to learn the tool, MM1 or M246 not important but the lens choice can be important.

3/2 framing can be different from GX1 format if precise framing is required.

Maybe the culprit would be flash using ?

Edited October 24, 2022 by a.noctilux

[Besprosvet]

18 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Those images "moods" from your links are doable with any of the Monochrom.

You seem to have good eyes, and mostly you do know what you want.

 

My first advice is take time to learn the tool, MM1 or M246 not important but the lens choice can be important.

3/2 framing can be different from GX1 format if precise framing is required.

Maybe the culprit would be flash using ?

Sometimes I intentionally blow stuff with the flash, together with deep shadows, it takes away content from the image, and is something I look for for some kind of narration. I just love the gritty look of handheld night photography, also when everything I have is noisy night midtones.

Framing wise... I tend to prefer 4/3 ratio, especially with 40mm equivalent lenses (size/cost wise that tiny pancake from Panasonic is outstanding and renders overcast days in cold tones in a majestic way), and that may be an issue... but I don't want to invest in medium format: I never use my Canon EF gear outside work because weight!

A medium format despite having the lovely 4/3 ratio would just be a pixel peeping toy I'd use only at home, a complete waste of time and money. Truly a bad direction for the eyes and mind.

Price advice: according to you, in Europe, 3.6k is honest for a M 246? The cheapest M9M I've seen is instead 3k. Thank you

[a.noctilux]

1 hour ago, Besprosvet said:

Price advice: according to you, in Europe, 3.6k is honest for a M 246? The cheapest M9M I've seen is instead 3k.

Sorry I can not comment on prices.

This can change a lot depending on country and timing.

Offer/demand of these limited run Monochroms can vary a lot.

Since I have them (from 2015/16 ?), I just use them and never care about their prices as I don't plan to sell.

 

[Besprosvet]

14 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

Sorry I can not comment on prices.

This can change a lot depending on country and timing.

Offer/demand of these limited run Monochroms can vary a lot.

Since I have them (from 2015/16 ?), I just use them and never care about their prices as I don't plan to sell.

 

I got the 246, all in all, the difference in price between the two was small and with the 246 I get a more reliable machine (which sensor, just in case anything happen, can STILL get repaired...). I'm really excited, can't wait to have it home

[a.noctilux]

👍

Good move.

Which lens do you plan to begin with ?

My last advice is to "forget" the other cameras you had used.

Learn from zero the weird behaviors of Leica Monochrom without comparing (if possible) your M246 to your other cameras.

If you have questions, we are pleased to answer here if we can.

Go slowly, then at last you will "know" one of the finest monochrom camera.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Besprosvet]

1 hour ago, a.noctilux said:

👍

Good move.

Which lens do you plan to begin with ?

My last advice is to "forget" the other cameras you had used.

Learn from zero the weird behaviors of Leica Monochrom without comparing (if possible) your M246 to your other cameras.

If you have questions, we are pleased to answer here if we can.

Go slowly, then at last you will "know" one of the finest monochrom camera.

I'm surely going to forget all my Canon gear since in winter I have no jobs and I never use it outside of them (weight!). It might be a bit more difficult to put aside my X100V since I love taking color photos of my daughter, but I'm sure I'll be able to see the monochrom as a beast on its own, and I can't wait to use it everyday, looking for those spooky lightings I love, enjoying the limitations of a monochrom sensor.

I remember this like it was yesterday: in 2012 dpreview published the first samples of the first monochrom, I was a young photographer at the beginning of the photographic path thinking "it's jaw dropping, I'll never be able to afford one", and now I'm going to have a monochrom! So I'm really excited.

Lenses wise, I got:

- 7artisan 35mm 1.4 for more "sharp and precise" stuff

- Jupiter-12 for more "instinctive snaps with vintage look and fair quality so I focus on my monochrom vision without overthinking about this or that nuance/bokeh blablabla" all in a compact layout (trying to get the mindset I have with my Gx1+pancake), this way I can also keep the rangefinder mostly free from distracting obtrusions.

As soon as I find a decent Jupiter-3 (and a way to fix the focusing just in case, or somebody that can do it for me) I'll get also that 50mm mostly for magical dreamy portraiture and low light night glow at focusing distances of around 2mt.

I could adapt my old Pentax K lenses... but I got Leica (spending a lot for it) for the rangefinder, I don't want live view to become my main focusing experience. At that point it'd be more intelligent to use my R6 and set the finder in monochrom.

If all this works for me, I might get an M 240 next spring to introduce Leica in my workflow for slow paced jobs like couple photoshoots