Leica’s Stefan Daniel on the retirement of the Leica CL and some hints for the future

[Herr Barnack]

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For the CL lovers, connoisseurs and mourners -

Leica’s Stefan Daniel on the retirement of the Leica CL and some hints for the future:

https://www.macfilos.com/2022/10/18/leicas-stefan-daniel-on-the-retirement-of-the-leica-cl-and-some-hints-for-the-future/

Edited October 18, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[GFW2-SCUSA]

A very interesting read. It almost made me wish I had go to the LSHA meeting. Stefan Daniel, whom I have never met, has a most winsome, warm and friendly look I would image it would be difficult to be angry with him. But I thought his reasoning for dumping the CL just seem very thin. Knowing nothing about the number of CL sales, not production costs I can't argue from fact. I can merely suggest that a lot more information would have been helpful. The CL (I'd drop the T stuff, it was pretty but not important, in my opinion) was a wonderful camera and a serious camera. I use my M lenses on it and it is a delightful back up to my Ms.  I have the SL2, a fine camera and a beast, but I don't use it much. I like the small, simple M 10 . The CL is a wonderful companion if I want to use a long lens without needing a wheelbarrowi to tote the SL2. 

This is going nowhere. I think all I mean to say is Strfan should have been more forthcoming on why Leica dripped a wonderful camera rather than market it well and make minor improvements. End of Rant.  

[pippy]

A good read and thanks for the link. If I were to be asked to choose a 'stand-out' passage from the text I would have to say that I thought that this bit was, for me, most interesting;

"Stefan surprised the audience by saying that if there were sufficient demand, Leica would consider producing an M with EVF. Asked how many they would need to sell in order to make such a decision, he estimated “a couple of thousand”. This news was well received..."

Philip.

Edited October 19, 2022 by pippy

[SrMi]

In the comment section, William Fagan, who hosted the session with Stefan, writes that he did not remember CL being discussed that much.
I wish Leica would have continued to excel in a small, high-quality package (CL).

[lct]

10 hours ago, pippy said:

A good read and thanks for the link. If I were to be asked to choose a 'stand-out' passage from the text I would have to say that I thought that this bit was, for me, most interesting;

"Stefan surprised the audience by saying that if there were sufficient demand, Leica would consider producing an M with EVF. Asked how many they would need to sell in order to make such a decision, he estimated “a couple of thousand”. This news was well received..."

Read "several thousands" according to Macfilos or "quand les poules auront des dents" in French, or "when pigs can fly" in English . Hope to be proved wrong. 

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Read "several thousands" according to Macfilos or "quand les poules auront des dents" in French, or "when pigs can fly" in English . Hope to be proved wrong. 

They can interpolate the actual demand if they sample LSI members, as mentioned (most using M cameras, apparently). I think the demand will be high enough, but it remains to be seen whether Leica will produce such a camera. Understandably, most LSI members do not see an SL2 with M lenses as an alternative. The size and weight matter.

Even Jono would like to pair a rangefinder M11 with and EVF M.

[frame-it]

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“Asked when the Q3 would be launched, Stefan obviously couldn’t make a prediction."

id love a 60mp Q3 with a fixed tri-elmar 21-35-50 lens

[Dopaco]

After reading the text, the conclusion I draw is that Stefan has tried to please the majority.
I think that many companies in Europe, after the Covid epidemic and the Wars, are not going through their best moment, except for Chinese companies because of their better cheap workforce. Most companies, faced with an uncertain outlook, try not to take risks and reduce costs.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Dopaco

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[lct]

2 hours ago, Dopaco said:

[...] Stefan has tried to please the majority [...]

Or simply his accountant .

[Alberti]

Quote

Leica would consider producing an M with EVF

The development cost is overseeable, I mean, you do not need a lot there is not now. 

But alas there will be others who want to study first IBIS or else an electronic shaker of the sensor to drop dust etc etc and then we get a development cycle in the wrong way. Ha I hear them say 'we can with the piezo shakers even have a super-mode of 150 MP' but again not what we need. Just a camera with FF, 24 mP FF or 40. The actual sensor 'sensitivity' is not crucial; it can be created in software like my mirrorless. 

- Marketing, distribution: I think there are a lot of costs there.

Look: I choose the S5 while I wanted the CL. The S5 is clumsy, is not a camera (it is a video machine) and while useful and even good under circumstances (the right lenses) not egonomic. And many M-lenses are not handeld well in corners - and there we should have the big benefit of a native M-mount, 6-bit reading . . . 

M with EVF certainly would fill a hole in the pallette of offerings/ and as to a CL, why not the same and similar, just another bayonet and let us buy the M-CL-6bit adapter . . . IMHO there would potentially be no big difference once the basic product platform (read the story of Swtch) is there: a very good EVF (there must be one ), a good allwayson sensor (there must be one ) and a good electronics (that must be there too ). 

[SrMi]

39 minutes ago, Alberti said:

The actual sensor 'sensitivity' is not crucial; it can be created in software like my mirrorless. 

What do you mean by that?

[jaapv]

On 10/20/2022 at 4:35 PM, Alberti said:

The development cost is overseeable, I mean, you do not need a lot there is not now. 

But alas there will be others who want to study first IBIS or else an electronic shaker of the sensor to drop dust etc etc and then we get a development cycle in the wrong way. Ha I hear them say 'we can with the piezo shakers even have a super-mode of 150 MP' but again not what we need. Just a camera with FF, 24 mP FF or 40. The actual sensor 'sensitivity' is not crucial; it can be created in software like my mirrorless. 

- Marketing, distribution: I think there are a lot of costs there.

Look: I choose the S5 while I wanted the CL. The S5 is clumsy, is not a camera (it is a video machine) and while useful and even good under circumstances (the right lenses) not egonomic. And many M-lenses are not handeld well in corners - and there we should have the big benefit of a native M-mount, 6-bit reading . . . 

M with EVF certainly would fill a hole in the pallette of offerings/ and as to a CL, why not the same and similar, just another bayonet and let us buy the M-CL-6bit adapter . . . IMHO there would potentially be no big difference once the basic product platform (read the story of Swtch) is there: a very good EVF (there must be one ), a good allwayson sensor (there must be one ) and a good electronics (that must be there too ). 

Personally I find the S5 as good with stills as it is with video  It is just a matter of implementing the correct user profiles  

 

[jaapv]

28 minutes ago, jaapv said:

The actual sensor 'sensitivity' is not crucial; it can be created in software like my mirrorless. 

 

Err.. no. The sensor sensitivity is a property of the sensor which  can be defined as the lowest intensity photonstream which produces a non-random sensor response. The only thing you can change is the amplification of the signal (including noise).

[edstock]

The bean counters rule. Would I pay $11,000.00 for an M11, not on your nelly.

[rtai]

I have been on the fence about buying a used CL with 18-55mm zoom kit but will now look into Panasonic M43. I might still go for it but the Leica badged 12/1.4 and 15/1.7 lenses with the Panasonic GX9 look to be a good street set up.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[jaapv]

Be aware though that the image quality of MFT is, although still quite good, not on the level that of sensors used by Leica for APS-C. Especially when editing the images it tends to get a bit gritty. Having said that, I was never unhappy with my GX8 and Leica-approved lenses. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Gregm61]

They discontinue the CL but keep regurgitating special models of the Deluxe 7……wow.

[Le Chef]

I’m surprised Leica didn’t bring out a “Ghost” version of the CL after they discontinued it. At least it would have shown a sense of humour.

[David Cantor]

On 1/2/2023 at 10:46 AM, jaapv said:

Be aware though that the image quality of MFT is, although still quite good, not on the level that of sensors used by Leica for APS-C. Especially when editing the images it tends to get a bit gritty. Having said that, I was never unhappy with my GX8 and Leica-approved lenses. 

Mmm, I still have my 11 year-old Olympus EM-5 Mk 1.  The colours are superb as is the IBIS, the latter is sadly lacking in my recently acquired CL/35 f/1.4 combination.  The images from the CL require a little less work in post but the quality is close.

I think that "still quite good" is significantly understating the capabilities of MFT.  Proof?  A number of award winning images shot with the EM-5 and the Pan/Leica 12-35mm f/2.8

David

 

[jaapv]

My proof is shooting a GX8 and CL side by side. I find the MFT images brittle in post compared to the CL.
Award-winning? That is the photographer, not the gear. Congratulations