Reissue 35mm Summilux Pre-Asph V1 Steel Rim

[patrickcolpron]

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7 hours ago, trisberg said:

Well, I'm glad you did share it. I found it really enjoyable and interesting and I would agree with your criticism of the new SR. Watching the video made me go back and review my own results with the SR "re-issue". Stopped down it works great for me, but I'm not sure yet what to make of the results wide open. It's easy to avoid 1.4 on digital but it might come in handy with film in low light with limited ISO options. I'll have to shoot more film with it to get a feel for the results. I'm Sharing a couple of wide open shots on an M10 from Boston this summer.

Thomas

Hi Thomas,

Thank you greatly appreciated. I found that the new Steel Rim closed down to behave very much like a modern Leica lens, this is why I do recommend the newer FLE.

On film and on digital wide open it behaves the same, I don't mind it and appreciate how it flares and render lights and highlights wide open, but it is not to everyone's liking that's for sure. 

I recognise the softness it has wide open in your first shot and like how it renders the steams in the second photo you shared. One can also see how it uniquely deforms points of lights at the edges, which is kind of uniquely cool in my opinion. I do prefer the results I get with it at f/1.7 for this type of photography, where it shines at f/1.4 is for close up, one meter away, portraits made with it.

 

5 hours ago, weihsuan said:

I'm fortunate to have in possession an original 206 steel rim. When I first held the re-issue lens in the Leica shop, I wasn't too pleased with the filter size (E46 vs E41), the infinity lock (feels rather flimsy to me) and the knurling (this especially). Glad to know I wasn't the only crazy one around. 

You are definitely not the only crazy around, this is a little like a Leica Anonymous online meeting place, "Hi I m Patrick and what keeps me up at night is ..." Oh there is a long list. I'll be surely not the first to admit good design drew me to Leica, and the new Steel Rim reissue missed the mark on good design. I still wonder why couldn't they keep it looking just like the original? All they had to do was to have a close focus set to 70cm to differentiate it from original lenses ... 

Compared to an original, the new one does feel flimsy, both the aperture and infinity lock are not as solidly built and the new is lighter too.  Plus that e46 filtered sized Steel Rim is too big for such a small lens. 

 

4 hours ago, grahamc said:

Impossible to ignore the efforts and time this type of video must take, Patrick - thanks for putting together and sharing . 

Respectfully, a lot the test photography looked like hit and hope from 3 metres of random strangers doing nothing in particular.  Each to their own but in these type of shots perhaps the fall of the light or conditions of the day were more crucial to the end result than the batch of the lens.   I wonder if bench tests on a target can reveal more about a particular lens to draw comparison conclusions but your way sure was more entertaining. 

Regarding claims about particular batches, it's well known that in the production methods of the era these lens were produced, it was not possible to replicate exactly lens to lens the production standard the way it is nowadays, meaning their were slight variations.  It was common that photographers (or others fortunate enough to do so) would take several copies of a lens to test, and then finalise their purchase on the best performing one.  We can assume that these were from the same batches, and therefore that there was certainly performance variation between lenses of a batch.    Now some 60+ years later, testing one lens from a batch of 1100 surely doesn't constitute a statistically significant sample of the overall batch to draw conclusions from.  After all, if this difference between individual lenses (within a batch) existed at the time of production, now some 60 + years later imagine those differences exacerbated from use/abuse/service standards that an individual lens has undergone.  

So I doubt there was any significant production changes in 173,176 and 177 (all produced in 1960), and of more importance is probably having an originally-good (and subsequently well-serviced) copy.  It's feasible there could have been changes in production methods between those batches and the one produced 4 years later (206) of course.  Still, mythology abounds surrounding these batches and I've even read from a very credible source (sorry I can't share here) that a glass change occurred midway through batch 216 may in effect make the latter half of the batch as much the "first of the v2" as it is the "last of the v1".   It'd be interesting to test a very early v2 (infinity lock) against the final 216 steel rim batch to see if this holds any credibility.   Although now I come to think of it we'd need much more than 1 lens per sample to draw conclusions ... Could be an expensive exercise  

All this aside what is beyond doubt is that the original steel rim is a magnificent lens not only for the look it gives but but also the amazing build quality and pioneering history.   Thanks again for putting this video into the world - I completely agree with the comments regarding the remake when handled side by side with the original . 

Good luck on the quest for your dream copy and thanks very much again for a very fun vid ! 

Thank you Graham,

I should probably post a few rolls of film, from first to last shot. I had a lot of practice. Most of these were shot about 6 feet away, less than 2 meters and granted I did not share my missed shot, most of them were calculated and nailed on the first try. With digital cameras one can afford to practice a lot, so I can get good results with film and digital these days. This said I've been doing it for a long time and my street photography is more "pedestrian" than art, nothing special really. 

I did try a couple of different lenses of one batch, the 216 and they did render each in their unique ways, there are differences in each batch for sure and the 216 is better in sharpness and color rendition than the 176 and 177 I used. Yet I am sure a more expansive test would bring us a more accurate portrait on how the lenses of the different batches behave - that could be a costly adventure in terms of time and dollars.

I am also in the camp that doesn't believer bench test provides a true measure of how well a lens behaves in the real world, it cannot tell you how good it can render when used to create photos which aim at making an emotional connection with a viewer - I do find it silly they mouth of effort and time people, reviewers, spend shooting color charts and plush toy to compare different lenses. It really doesn't speak to me. 

You do touch a good point I did not address in the video, the age of the lenses and how the glass, coating after 6 decades and how services to these lens may have affected their rendering, there was a little issue with two of the original I tested but nothing major - due to how they were serviced years ago. It happens, yet the fact they still work and are sharper plus have better color rendering than modern lenses - makes me wonder how much have we lost in the last 60 years thanks to computer assisted design which...

... makes me come full circle to (strange how my mind works) ... full circle to maybe we shouldn't put the emphasis on bench test but on real world testing, who needs sharpness when we take the art ("heart") out of the equation. 

I'll find that dream lens soon. 

2 hours ago, rtai said:

The photography in your video is excellent. I am now a subscriber and look forward to new content. I don’t have the new or original SR but have two v2 pre-A Summilux Canadian and German. They are good enough for me.

Thank you greatly appreciated, working on the next video now. The important thing in all of this is finding what works and being happy with it, I think you have that one nailed with these two pre-a Summilux V2 of yours ! 

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[rtai]

7 hours ago, patrickcolpron said:

 

You do touch a good point I did not address in the video, the age of the lenses and how the glass, coating after 6 decades and how services to these lens may have affected their rendering, there was a little issue with two of the original I tested but nothing major - due to how they were serviced years ago. It happens, yet the fact they still work and are sharper plus have better color rendering than modern lenses - makes me wonder how much have we lost in the last 60 years thanks to computer assisted design which...

When I started using Leicas 25 years ago there weren’t much information even online aside from a few forums. Leica lenses weren’t collectibles then and I bought a bunch of the silver rims one after another to try and test. By testing I mean using them normally handheld at f1.4 of my kids or something. I probably had 6 of them. I didn’t know about the serial numbers whether they were 173 or 216. In fact I didn’t know until I watched your video. Anyway casually using these lenses with various color print film and viewing them on one hour lab prints the lenses shot open were very soft and glowy. I should add these lenses didn’t have haze else I would have had them cleaned. I was merely looking for a lens I could use, as a user. They all had some scratch marks usually on the bottom because when you lay them down without the rear cap the glass touches. Some were sharp at f1.4 and some were not. But the goggled samples were consistently sharp at f1.4 while the M2 version can vary. I told a tech this and he said lenses were finer tuned to match the goggles and also people who buy them tend to be light users so goggles lenses are mostly mint condition rarely used.  After that I had enough with vintage and just bought the new stuff.

[patrickcolpron]

15 hours ago, rtai said:

When I started using Leicas 25 years ago there weren’t much information even online aside from a few forums. Leica lenses weren’t collectibles then and I bought a bunch of the silver rims one after another to try and test. By testing I mean using them normally handheld at f1.4 of my kids or something. I probably had 6 of them. I didn’t know about the serial numbers whether they were 173 or 216. In fact I didn’t know until I watched your video. Anyway casually using these lenses with various color print film and viewing them on one hour lab prints the lenses shot open were very soft and glowy. I should add these lenses didn’t have haze else I would have had them cleaned. I was merely looking for a lens I could use, as a user. They all had some scratch marks usually on the bottom because when you lay them down without the rear cap the glass touches. Some were sharp at f1.4 and some were not. But the goggled samples were consistently sharp at f1.4 while the M2 version can vary. I told a tech this and he said lenses were finer tuned to match the goggles and also people who buy them tend to be light users so goggles lenses are mostly mint condition rarely used.  After that I had enough with vintage and just bought the new stuff.

 

Using them normally hand held is the only correct to test and try lenses in my opinion, in my opinion we can only truly judge a lens with normal day to day usage.

The goggled version I tried was the sharpest lens until about 4 meters out, what you say makes total sense. As much as I like newer modern lenses, they all lack a little bit of character, this is what I appreciate about older lenses, they all have a little something different and that added uniqueness is now something I am after.

But all of this might just be a phase yet, I found that closed down to f/4 all original Steel Rim I used were sharper and had better color rendition than the New Steel rim at the same aperture. I seldom shoot wide open as such older lenses make sense for my way of making photos.  

[rcusick]

17 hours ago, patrickcolpron said:

 

Using them normally hand held is the only correct to test and try lenses in my opinion, in my opinion we can only truly judge a lens with normal day to day usage.

The goggled version I tried was the sharpest lens until about 4 meters out, what you say makes total sense. As much as I like newer modern lenses, they all lack a little bit of character, this is what I appreciate about older lenses, they all have a little something different and that added uniqueness is now something I am after.

But all of this might just be a phase yet, I found that closed down to f/4 all original Steel Rim I used were sharper and had better color rendition than the New Steel rim at the same aperture. I seldom shoot wide open as such older lenses make sense for my way of making photos.  

The new steel rim is not sharp at all compared to the original apsh v2.  I also don’t like the new coating.  Selling mine…

[patrickcolpron]

On 12/20/2023 at 2:45 AM, rcusick said:

The new steel rim is not sharp at all compared to the original apsh v2.  I also don’t like the new coating.  Selling mine…

Wide open and up to f/2 it definitely isn't as sharp, plus it has a much more modern rendering at f/4 and up. Yet it is still a better rendering than the 35 Lux FLE both version 1 and 2 when used at f/2 and at smaller apertures. I can understand not keeping it, wondering about the same issue myself as well  

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[dickgillberg]

I've just got my new lens. It has it's flaws with a some kind of wobbly apertur ring and wobbly lens shade even as the manufacturing date was 13/12-23. I've a question about the coating on the front lens. I could not use the ordinary lens protection cap when I mounted the ring hood, is the coating of the lens softer than new lenses? I don't use UV filters or similar for my lenses.   

[patrickcolpron]

2 hours ago, dickgillberg said:

I've just got my new lens. It has it's flaws with a some kind of wobbly apertur ring and wobbly lens shade even as the manufacturing date was 13/12-23. I've a question about the coating on the front lens. I could not use the ordinary lens protection cap when I mounted the ring hood, is the coating of the lens softer than new lenses? I don't use UV filters or similar for my lenses.   

On the reissue the coating is modern just like other modern Leica lenses, you don't have to worry about it. This said as much as I prefer shooting without a lens filter, I did damage a 3 FLE lens coating and now prefer shooting with a lens filter on most of my lenses - except the Steel Rim Reissue which I use without a filter when shooting color film or when using it on a digital M. 

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[M8X2]

Patrick, thank you very much for your video! What I liked about it was that you demonstrated the real-life use and your impressions of the various lenses. As someone planning to switch from Q2 to M, which lens to chose to begin with is the most difficult decision to make and videos like yours are really helpful - although a lot of it went over my head as I know close to nothing.

And by the way, the images you show in the video are amazing! Really need to bring my to-be-purchased gear to Paris next time I get there.

[noirblancgris]

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[patrickcolpron]

On 1/14/2024 at 12:52 PM, M8X2 said:

Patrick, thank you very much for your video! What I liked about it was that you demonstrated the real-life use and your impressions of the various lenses. As someone planning to switch from Q2 to M, which lens to chose to begin with is the most difficult decision to make and videos like yours are really helpful - although a lot of it went over my head as I know close to nothing.

And by the way, the images you show in the video are amazing! Really need to bring my to-be-purchased gear to Paris next time I get there.

 

Thank you means a lot, my apologies as I am just seeing your comment now. 

Choosing a lens for the M is a difficult choice, a 35 Summilux is always a great first lens, but coming from a Q a 28 might be wiser. What I like about the M system are its small lenses, the smaller the better. 35 f/1.4 lenses comes in many shapes, prices and sizes. 

Next time you come to Paris let me know I am always up for a quick coffee and a photowalk. 

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On 1/7/2024 at 10:30 AM, S/W said:

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Edited February 5, 2024 by JoshuaRothman