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Firmware 1.108 NOT Available

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Lets get this thread back to something important. like cheerleaders. :-P

Ha Ha Ha

As the F'ing idiot that started this thread I totally agree with the above.

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Two things, have they changed the main board? If so please point me to the communication where Leica said so. If you can't this is _pure_ speculation without foundation in fact.

 

Secondly, this GIDEP you mention, is it a European, or to be more specific, a German organisation? Maybe it's something in the US, in which case can you please explain what it's relevance is to a non-military camera manufacturer in Germany?

 

I guess you haven't been reading the entire thread because here is where it came from (see image below):

 

My point with GIDEP which is available to any commercial company is that there are numerous ways to obtain discontinued products given the small quantities Leica is likely to need (less than 10K) parts. Here is the link to make it easier to read: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/34434-firmware-1-108-not-available-4.html #64

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1.- It is illegal to sell a good which has been already sold, used and repaired “as new”. It doesn’t matter if it was just for a minute.

 

2.- A Company which sells goods which don’t fulfill with the specifications advertised can be suited for fraud and false publicity.

 

3.- A manufacturer can change specifications of his products and cannot be sewed for that but it’s a crime to sell a product giving wrong information.

 

1. Was the camera you saw in La Maison du Leica the same camera you had, or was it a different camera carrying the same serial number? Was it perhaps the same camera but it had never in fact been back to Solms?

 

2. In what way is a current M8 not meeting the specifications advertised?

 

3. Leica have made a minor modification to the M8, that does not mean it's a new version of the camera.

 

By all means sue Leica, but I will guarantee now that you will lose not only the case, but also a fair amount of money.

 

Leica have stated that due to the unavailability of a part they have had to change the hardware. That in turn has resulted in a necessary change to the firmware. As has been stated elsewhere in this thread that is common practice in the electronics industry - and believe me Leica's lawyers will be fully aware of that when the case comes to court and will pursue that line of defence until you lose a lot of money.

 

What was Leica's alternative? That they cease production of the camera?

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First, for all the insults I heard here, I simply say I don’t give a dam. It’s rather amusing how people here attack you personally when you say something against Leica. Most of my posts have been intentionally modified from the original meaning. I don’t care. Affirmations like I’m troll, I need a shrink, a 4-6 years old child behavior and other personal insults just comfort my position. You cannot complain here about Leica’s lack of communication and opaque marketing policies.

 

Concerning legal issues I can say:

 

1.- It is illegal to sell a good which has been already sold, used and repaired “as new”. It doesn’t matter if it was just for a minute.

 

2.- A Company which sells goods which don’t fulfill with the specifications advertised can be suited for fraud and false publicity.

 

3.- A manufacturer can change specifications of his products and cannot be sewed for that but it’s a crime to sell a product giving wrong information.

 

My solicitor will prepare a letter for Leica asking explanations. Depending on Leica’s answers I will decide what to do. In France “class actions” doesn’t exist.

 

Another photographer was at this dinner party and everybody was shocked of Leica behavior.

 

I love my two M8s but Leica attitude is intolerable.

 

You can take this as you like. You can insult me again if you wish. Just because there’s a group of fanatics here, there’s no reason why I cannot express my opinion.

 

I think Internet is a free space and I haven’t insulted anyone. People called me “troll”, compared me to Gorges W. Bush and many other things and moderators haven’t said a word. Bravo.

 

Fanatical? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. And you don't think that you are being fanatical by seeking your "solicitor" and drafting a strongly worded and accusatory letter based on...hmmm...pure speculation.

 

Personally I think your dealer is the one that tried to resell a used M8 as new. Of course he is going to tell you that Leica did it because the alternative is for him to confess...not likely.

 

I think people are just trying to get you to take a breather...take a step back and try to see things from another perspective before you rush into something that might end up costing you more money and time than it is worth.

 

You ask for fairness but you have gone off and slandered the Leica brand to your friends and solicitor based on nothing but your own speculation. Is that fair? Absolutely NOT. Hypocritical? Absolutely YES.

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Guest stnami

Manuel, what most have failed to read is that you are deferring any "real" action until you get a plausable, logical response from Leica in regards your concerns. Nothing wrong with that and making them as public as ok in my books

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If you had the opportunity to exchange your M8 for the newer version for only the cost of shipping and you were told that there was no functional difference would you do it?

No way. I've got a camera that I use daily. It's got my dings. Why start with a new one that may not be any better or may be worse?

 

Once again Guy, the fact that you (and Sean) are the ones offering a clarification and reassurance rather than Stefan or Ralph or some other Leica official, hammers home the sad fact that Leica has a serious problem with communication.

That's crazy, Vinay. Leica sent an email that explained everything. I don't understand why people are now trying to re-write the email. Seemed clear enough to me. But then, I'm a native speaker of English. It may be harder for others.

 

I've been a huge customer of Leica for almost 20 years, I suspect I've contributed much more to their well-being than you,

Anyone who would say such a thing has a severe complex. What does the Rostand translation of Cyrano say? "Alas, of wit you never had an atom. And of letters, you need but three to set you down, an ..." [You know the rest of the translation.]

 

Seriously, to the Leica folks reading this, life will be a whole lot easier if you just provide a clear simple explanation of the changes....

Sandy, for some of us that is doubtless true, but for me such an explanation would do good. I see the humor in Mark's Analog Devices scenario, but I've got no idea what any chip does; telling me that would be of no benefit. Then we'd get people asking, "Okay, so if you changed the timing on XXX, how will that influence the generation of JPG etc etc?" Whatever Leica does, those who set themselves on a pedestal and seriously believe that Leica owes them will be out screaming that Leica has done wrong again.

 

I think Leica has been forthcoming, and a couple people have quit seeing the humor that colored the initial posts of two of the other three threads on the topic and are now seeing nefariousness behind any position of honesty. John even says Leica has a reason to lie. Really? A company just beginning to get its head above water should lie?

 

Come on. The childishness in this thread is really becoming tiresome.

 

--HC

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Leica's appalling public relations error in not releasing a full and complete, minutely specified description of the changes seems to have affected about, mmm, four people. Maybe six. The rest -- including the 95+ percent of Leica owners who don't read this forum or any forum, for that matter -- could really give a rat's ass about a routine spec change.

 

Just like the rotten Gnomes of Solms to try to sneak a better camera past us without letting us know about it, eh? If it had been Canon, they'd have been buying full-page ads in the London Times.

 

So why don't they just let us download the 1.08? Because everytime there's a firmware change, the board starts getting complaints that the firmware download doesn't work, and that it can't possibly be the user's fault because...uh, what do you mean, unZip the file?

<LOL>

 

Bravo, John! Perfect description of the non-event!

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Poor Leica.

 

If they hadn't told anyone about this, someone would have discovered the "new" firmware and four or five people here would have gotten upset.

 

If they had made it available for everyone, but said it was only for "internal purposes" or some such thing, then those same four or five people would be saying stuff like "where's the full disclosure about everything the firmware does?" or "What do they mean it doesn't do anything?! It must do something, or why would they let us download it!"

 

So they do what they think is the right thing, and short of saying exactly what part they're replacing say "hey look, we need to change a part internally that will necessitate a minor firmware change. So minor, in fact, that it WONT affect existing cameras at all, even if you load it

But we need to do it, and we're letting you know, because, you know, you kill us when we don't tell you what's going on"

 

And then the same people get upset anyway!!

 

LOL!!!!

 

BTW, I'm not sure changing the syntax of the communication (which is pretty clear actually, IMO) would have any effect whatsoever on people who think Leica's trying to slip a new "version" of the M8 out the door without telling all us poor saps with working cameras

 

If you think they're not to be trusted, then that's exactly what you'll think regardless of what they do.

 

(BTW--and FWIW--all kinds of changes necessitate changing main component boards these days. So that's not surprising, or alarming, to me in the slightest. If Leica says it's par for performance with the new components and not an M8 Mark2, then I believe them. Why wouldn't I?)

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Guest guy_mancuso
I guess you haven't been reading the entire thread because here is where it came from (see image below):

 

My point with GIDEP which is available to any commercial company is that there are numerous ways to obtain discontinued products given the small quantities Leica is likely to need (less than 10K) parts. Here is the link to make it easier to read: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/34434-firmware-1-108-not-available-4.html #64

 

 

John i could not confirm any of that post . Honestly there is firmware before November too. This comes from a dealer which came from someone else and so on. You know how that goes. i like hearing stuff directly from leica myself.

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Guest guy_mancuso

Manual i am not completely sure of your situation but from the way i read it and i know leica pretty well if there is a refurbished body than it will be marked as such. but i would seriously look at other places like your dealer for one. Because that is more the likely place this would happen and not from a OEM but i don't know all the facts and honestly i think your leg is being pulled from your dealer. This stuff really does not happen from leica itself unless it is clearly marked. Also you would have a used warranty card to boot again i have not read all of your situation so i am a little vague on all the details but my first reaction was a dealer issue. i wish you luck but i would keep the threats down until you have more info. Also there is a old saying you get more with sugar than you do with spice, and let me tell ya it works more often than you think. Threating a lawsuit will get you just that and not a new camera.

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My solicitor will prepare a letter for Leica asking explanations. Depending on Leica’s answers I will decide what to do. In France “class actions” doesn’t exist.

 

Another photographer was at this dinner party and everybody was shocked of Leica behavior.

 

I love my two M8s but Leica attitude is intolerable.

 

What a fun dinner party that must have been! Agonising over Leica's business practices and of course, you presented both points of view fairly didn't you, Manuel?

 

"There, there, Manuel, I'm really sorry about your camera, now open another bottle of wine would you?"

 

This whole thread, and the sentiment that Leica have been anything other than 100% ethical is nonsense.

 

And, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee. There may be other, more significant changes in the future which will improve the M8s performance, introduced as a mid-life "kicker" to prop up flagging sales. That will leave our M8s as the old model and their value will decrease and you will presumably toss and turn at night worrying that you don't have the latest and the best. If I were you, I'd get out now while your M8s still have value!

 

For the rest of us, the M8 will continue to produce the fine images it does today.

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No nothing but no jeans and must wear a collared shirt. To bloody hot here Mark. Today was a nice 98 degrees. This is also a public tourney for charity so no pro's in this.

 

The only Pro's here are the Cardinal cheerleaders from the NFL. looks like i may go get season tickets. LOL

 

I can see why Guy was so keen to get back to the golf course...

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Guy,

 

I agree with you. Threatening a law suit is a last resort and I am an attorney. In California, where I live and am licensed, there would be no need for an attorney or the cost of a full blown law suit as Small Claims court is adequate for up to $5K. Company's can not be represented by counsel and are actually on worse footing than the consumer. Not withstanding the above I always recommend trying to get a company to provide a solution to your complaint first. As I have posted in other threads, Leica is treading on very thin legal ice in the U.S. because, first, they failed to include any warranty information or limitation with the M8 leaving them open to unlimited warranty. Second, the camera does not fully meet the published specifications (8 bits versus 16 bits and others). Thirdly, it has many publicly known problems that have not been fixed as of this date extending any warranty limitation they might otherwise argue existed. Lastly, in states like California with very tough consumer laws they could be open to charges of fraud which turns a breach of contract claim into a tort with punitive damages available to the plaintiff.

 

Having said all of that, I like my camera, I want it to work as advertised with no green blobs from side light sources or stripes in high ISO etc. I want it to be reliable and not prone to mysterious failures for which no explanation has ever been given or freeze-ups, etc. Some people don't care and that is ok by me but why should they care that I do care and it is not ok by me? Maybe the fact that Leica didn't acknowledge the IR problem until it could not be denied is one of the reasons some of us aren't sure yet whether they can be trusted. Credibility is easy to lose and hard to regain. I won't do anything until I have given Leica every opportunity to do right by me. If they do, I will be a happy loyal customer and continue to spend outrageous sums buying lenses and what not. If not, I will first try and get them to act properly and if that fails take legal action and I won't be threatening them before hand, they would know when they were served. I see that as both fair and reasonable.

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This thread is getting more bizarre by the hour.

 

Yep.

Think I'll go hang out in the film forum 'till it blows over.

Or maybe go take some pics ... Hey! Now there's an idea!

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I stopped reading this thread on page two.

 

I think this whole thing is some kind of bizarre joke - except that it's not funny.

 

I usually try to be a gentleman, but there's no other way of stating this - some people here are complete idiots. You should not be allowed to own anything complicated with an operating system.

 

It's a stupid little firm-ware update. It's the same camera. It's no big deal. Go out and shoot.

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I do think any talk of legal action is utter nonsense. Hopefully, the Court would show the same level of pragmatism shown in Ally McBeal (the US legal system is a soap opera, right?) and tell the claimant to grow up.

 

Any substantial action against Leica would put them out of business, something of a pyrrhic victory, wouldn't you say?

 

Do stop all this legal posturing. There has been a component change in the M8 which requires a co-requisite firmware change. By the looks of things, it's a tiny change and if you are still worried about it, I'm sure your shrink will help unravel your mental knots at your next session.

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My solicitor will prepare a letter for Leica asking explanations. Depending on Leica’s answers I will decide what to do. .

 

My view is that you should by all means spend your money instructing your solicitor but please, please, keep his opinion to yourself.

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Well getting solicitors involved will please them and amuse us. If you have the money to waste send it to me instead. I promise to put it to far better use!

 

From page 136 of the M8 manual detailing the technical data and descriptions...

 

"Subject to changes in design, manufacture and range."

 

Seems pretty clear to me.

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