Purchasing a used Leica M10 and warranty lengths

[Jeff S]

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4 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

Come to think of it, I bought a used house and it didn't come with a warranty, either. 😳

I’ve been mindful of warranties on every ‘used’ house that I’ve purchased… roof, HVAC, foundation, appliances, builder and vendor warranties on various other items, etc.

As noted earlier, a good Leica dealer like Miami will send used gear to Leica (or DAG) prior to sale, after which Leica (or DAG) will often issue an extended warranty (in addition to the dealer warranty), having thoroughly inspected/serviced the product.

Jeff

[Adam Bonn]

8 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

In thinking about this, I cannot blame Leica for not issuing a blanket warranty on every used camera or lens that comes up for sale at a Leica store.  How are they supposed to know what they are warranting??  The camera or lens could be mint, or it could have concealed damage.

Most reliable camera retailers in the U.S. will inspect used cameras and/or lenses and offer some sort of warranty.  Used Photo Pro offers a one year warranty on items that are mint through fair condition. 

 

 

On 10/9/2022 at 6:03 PM, Adam Bonn said:

 

*the take away here I think is that it’s not Leica standing/not standing by it’s products, but more various markets/retailers managing customer expectations and underwriting risk

I don’t think Leica are really warranting anything sold through the stores be honest… that’s why the stores are free to offer different warranty lengths based on their individual take on their ability to underwrite risk and source quality stock, it’s because in the event of a customer warranty claim (outside of the original factory warranty) it’ll be the store footing the bill.

Speaking generally, inspection of any digital (and many mechanical)  product(s) only really determines its state on that day and  is no guarantee how it will work a little further down the line.

Fundamentally, it’s a Leica we all trust it was designed and built properly in the first place and if it needs a repair then it’ll be repairable for a considerable time in the future. 
 

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[Jeff S]

15 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

 

, it’s because in the event of a customer warranty claim (outside of the original factory warranty) it’ll be the store footing the bill.

 

As I’ve described, Leica often provides additional warranty on used items after servicing/refurbishing gear sent to them from a Leica store (like Leica Miami) prior to re-sale. This is in addition to store warranty. 

Jeff

[Adam Bonn]

8 hours ago, Jeff S said:

As I’ve described, Leica often provides additional warranty on used items after servicing/refurbishing gear sent to them from a Leica store (like Leica Miami) prior to re-sale. This is in addition to store warranty. 

Jeff

When I got my Lux ClA’d that warranty was 6 months from Wetzlar. Of course I had to pay for the CLA myself.

Likewise, any store sending equipment to Leica for repairs/servicing from an item outside of warranty will also be paying for that service. That’s not so much Leica warrantying used equipment, but warrantying their work.

This isn’t the same as a warranty on a secondhand item that MIGHT get a problem, it’s a warranty for a KNOWN problem that’s been fixed

[Jeff S]

5 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

When I got my Lux ClA’d that warranty was 6 months from Wetzlar. Of course I had to pay for the CLA myself.

Likewise, any store sending equipment to Leica for repairs/servicing from an item outside of warranty will also be paying for that service. That’s not so much Leica warrantying used equipment, but warrantying their work.

This isn’t the same as a warranty on a secondhand item that MIGHT get a problem, it’s a warranty for a KNOWN problem that’s been fixed

One more time…Leica Miami will often send a functioning piece of gear to Germany (or to DAG) for preventative maintenance, CLA or for a known issue prior to sale of a used item taken in trade or bought outright (or may refuse purchase). They send in items with known potential issues (any S lens with old AF motor, any M9 variant with old sensor), as well as items that they feel deserve some care or that hasn’t been serviced in a while.  Of course they pay for service, and raise the price accordingly to reflect the Leica warranty/extension. This way the store can stand behind the advertised gear, and the customer knows that it comes with both dealer and Leica (or DAG) warranty. For the customer the item is warrantied, regardless of any known or unknown prior issues, and that’s all that matters. If Leica raises prices on new items, Miami will typically adjust used prices up to protect trade in values.  Not all shops operate this way; often they have no clue if a used product has any problem, or potential issue.  Prices may be lower, but buyer beware.
 

Jeff

Edited October 13, 2022 by Jeff S

[DenverSteve]

On 10/5/2022 at 5:26 PM, Joe S said:

I have enjoyed and continue to enjoy M film cameras through the years . 

I purchased a new M8 back in the day and after its IR issues followed by its coffee stained sensors came to the conclusion that Leica was not yet ready for the digital age.   Then the M9 came along with it's sensor issues.   I have read recent posts regarding the M10 and issues of shutter problems.  

I have recently considering trying a used Leica M10 and given the past track records, I would like to at least have a decent warranty.  I have found used Leica digital camera warranty lengths in the US to be all over the place.  Strangely enough, one of shortest, if not tied for the shortest is the online Leica Store which offers only a paltry 30 day warranty!    This does not seem to show much confidence in the product!   Especially for a manufacturer known for very expensive repair work and the only game in town. 

I would be interested in hearing reliability experiences with the M10 and any helpful warranty recommendations.

 

This is not totally correct.  If you purchase CPO or certified pre-owned cameras from Leica in the U.S. you get a 2-year warranty.  KEH Camera offers an 180-day warranty on their used Leicas.  If you are hunting Ebay or a private camera store for a "deal" or bargain on an used Leica - you get whatever they offer. However if you shop Leica Store offerings - you will get the 2-year warranty on Certified Pre Owned cameras which I would suggest for a used camera costing around $7000.

[Adam Bonn]

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5 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Of course they pay for service

 

10 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

any store sending equipment to Leica for repairs/servicing from an item outside of warranty will also be paying for that service

So what I said already then.

Seems that US buyers have decent choices and the earlier talk of just days warranty wasn’t true across the board. Good.

Meanwhile across the pond, 6 months from a Leica store is low average, but not much good if the OP is stateside.

[Jeff S]

40 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

 

So what I said already then.

 

Not really.  Many reputable stores would sell a used item without thorough testing and consider it in fine condition (and not even disclose sensor generation or potential for corrosion). Miami will instead ship it to Germany (or to DAG) in order to ensure it’s up to standard overall, and the warranty may well be for an additional year, not 6 months. Leica will indeed issue full warranty on the used item after general inspection, for any issue, not just for the repair. At another store, the item would be sold with no warranty, and probably no disclosure on potential issues, even known ones like sensor corrosion.  It might even be priced similar to the one from Miami (or from another dealer using comparable standards).  DAG charged my dealer $75 for cleaning and inspecting a used lens, at their demand, and I netted several hundred dollars more from the consignment, far exceeding the repair cost due to the general warranty. The dealer even covered shipping costs to and from DAG.  The seller matters.  

Jeff

Edited October 13, 2022 by Jeff S

[Adam Bonn]

Yup, always buy the seller

[Joe S]

Leica Miami seems to be a well respected store.   They offer a 30 day warranty on all their pre-owned products.   They currently have two such used M10's for sale.   A camera that has required service performed by Leica carries a one year warranty.   They do not currently have any M10's in this category.

[Kwesi]

On 10/11/2022 at 7:06 PM, Herr Barnack said:

In thinking about this, I cannot blame Leica for not issuing a blanket warranty on every used camera or lens that comes up for sale at a Leica store.  How are they supposed to know what they are warranting??  The camera or lens could be mint, or it could have concealed damage.

It would be nice if Leica could give their used bodies and lenses a once over before putting them up for sale at their own store.

[Herr Barnack]

2 hours ago, Kwesi said:

It would be nice if Leica could give their used bodies and lenses a once over before putting them up for sale at their own store.

As I understand it, Leica stores do inspect and function check used cameras and lenses before putting them up for sale; if they didn't, they would be running the risk of selling a damaged/nonfunctional piece of gear to a customer.

The Leica store itself warranties the used gear they sell.

Leica Wetzlar warranties new cameras and lenses. 

It's two different situations

Edited October 14, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[Jeff S]

22 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

As I understand it, Leica stores do inspect and function check used cameras and lenses before putting them up for sale; if they didn't, they would be running the risk of selling a damaged/nonfunctional piece of gear to a customer.

 

 

Done to varying degrees.  Some reputable stores sold M9 bodies without bothering to check sensor generation or number of actuations, or sold S lenses without knowing if AF motors had been replaced.  Some don’t check and update to current FW. Or don’t actually shoot photos at all apertures, report on aperture ring tightness or focus throw smoothness. Or regularly send in items for service prior to sale (to Leica or third party) if not in fine condition. 

Jeff

Edited October 14, 2022 by Jeff S

[Herr Barnack]

5 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Done to varying degrees.  Some reputable stores sold M9 bodies without bothering to check sensor generation or number of actuations, or sold S lenses without knowing if AF motors had been replaced.  Some don’t check and update to current FW. Or don’t actually shoot photos at all apertures, report on aperture ring tightness or focus throw smoothness. Or regularly send in items for service prior to sale (to Leica or third party) if not in fine condition. 

Jeff

It would do both the Leica store and the client a world of good if they would tighten up their inspection/evaluation process. 

I hope all you Leica store used department managers listening/reading... 😉

Edited October 14, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[Siriusone59]

3 hours ago, Kwesi said:

It would be nice if Leica could give their used bodies and lenses a once over before putting them up for sale at their own store.

I suppose it depends on the store or maybe the person in charge that day.  A lens I purchased from Leica Miami came with the receipt where it was sent in, 6 bit coded and adjusted just days before.  That put them on my preferred list.

[Jeff S]

47 minutes ago, Siriusone59 said:

I suppose it depends on the store or maybe the person in charge that day.  A lens I purchased from Leica Miami came with the receipt where it was sent in, 6 bit coded and adjusted just days before.  That put them on my preferred list.

Josh Lehrer is in charge of the used dept at Leica Miami and personally inspects/tests every item AFAIK.  (I think he has memorized most Leica part numbers, even for many obscure accessories.) He and David Farkas, the owner, appear together on Red Dot Forum’s Camera Talk series on YouTube.

Jeff

[Joe S]

This is my final note about buying an M10 (or any other used digital Leica) and best protecting your investment from a possible large repair bill.   I highly recommend Tamarkin Camera as an excellent dealer where I purchased mine.  All of their used digital cameras come with a FULL ONE YEAR WARRANTY which is at least twice as long or more than I found elsewhere and unbelievably 12 times as long as a standard Leica store.   Currently the Leica Store Miami is also only offering only 30 day warranties on its used digital stock.   I am just a happy customer and no relation to Tamarkin.    

[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, Joe S said:

This is my final note about buying an M10 (or any other used digital Leica) and best protecting your investment from a possible large repair bill.   I highly recommend Tamarkin Camera as an excellent dealer where I purchased mine.  All of their used digital cameras come with a FULL ONE YEAR WARRANTY which is at least twice as long or more than I found elsewhere and unbelievably 12 times as long as a standard Leica store.   Currently the Leica Store Miami is also only offering only 30 day warranties on its used digital stock.   I am just a happy customer and no relation to Tamarkin.    

Many of Leica Miami used items come with additional warranties from Leica or DAG, as they routinely send gear out for service prior to sale to ensure best quality.  
 

Jeff