M10 with fill-flash?

[MikeMyers]

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Lots going on in my life, sold and selling my Nikon DSLR cameras, with the intent being to do most of my photography with my M10.  I do have a question, that may or may not have an answer.

Over the past two weeks, in India, my D750 was already sold, and all I had left was my Fuji X100f.  A family asked me to take family photos, two adults and a very young girl.  The photos were to be in various places in their home, and some outside on a nearby path as the sun was setting.

I didn't like what I was getting, as some photos were back-lit, and many had the part of their face facing away from the window in shadow.  As Ken Rockwell described, the Fuji has a tiny built-in flash, and with TTL it could be used as a fill-flash, not making my images look like I used a flash at all, but greatly improving those images.

If I visit India again, I expect to again be asked to do this.  Is there any miniature flash that fits the M10 that can accomplish this?  I expect I'm going to miss that fill-flash.

 

Is this an appropriate solution to my question?

https://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/sf-24d.htm

[Siriusone59]

I went through the same search not too long ago.  Looking for a small fill flash that would work on my Q or M10r.  After reading the same kenrockwell article as you posted I started looking for the sf24d, their used prices on eBay enticed me to re-examine the sf40 which I initially thought was too expensive but found I could get a new one from amazon for less than $450 which was less than a used sf24d on eBay.  Bought the sf40 and haven't looked back.  It works fine on both cameras with TTL.  Did notice that on the m10r it gives more reliable exposure if I manually select a ISO on the camera.

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[Boojay]

You may find this useful...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ebg5fsdIy0

 

[MikeMyers]

Thanks; my head is now spinning.

I suspect I should just put this off for sometime in the future, when/if I might need it.  Or, just hang onto my Fuji X100F, for my next visit to India along with my M10.  Doing a few searches left me rather confused - I just wanted something simple, for fill-in.  

Or, I still have my Nikon SB-800 from a life-time ago.  https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/137152-m82-with-nikon-sb800-flash/  Not now, but eventually I will see if this is a suitable solution for me.  Thanks for all the advice.  Too bad I can't buy the flash Ken Rockwell liked so much.

[weinlamm]

vor 43 Minuten schrieb MikeMyers:

 I still have my Nikon SB-800 from a life-time ago. 

In A-Mode (on flash) this should work. At least for the most situations... but it's not TTL. 

 

I don't know exactly if you are looking for a flash on your camera. For me - I don't like flash on my camera. I like it more off camera. 

There is a new product:

https://godox.eu/product/xprol-ii-ttl-wireless-flash-trigger-for-leica/

It's EU-website - but I'm sure there should be anything for us. 

You can use this trigger with any flash you want - off camera. For most situations it should work on a small stand. 

With a V1 - it's working fine. Next test for me is with an old TT685N (got this some time ago used for round about 30 bucks); in the moment my batteries are loading... So - perhaps - there are some older options possible... 

 

 

 

[MikeMyers]

34 minutes ago, weinlamm said:

I don't know exactly if you are looking for a flash on your camera.

I don't like flash either, but turning on the fill-flash on the Fuji X100F made a big improvement for parts of people's faces that were in shadow.  I guess I'm looking for a tiny flash that would replicate that ability on an M10.  I'm wondering, more than looking.  I guess I'll forget about this for a while.  If this happens again, why not just use my Fuji.

[charlesphoto99]

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About the smallest you'll find is the SF-24, or a few off brand manual only jobs. Truly miniature can't happen because you need it to fit the hotshot, room for batteries, flash head etc. Keep in mind with an M10 you'll most likely need to use an ND filter in daytime as the top sync speed is 1/160th. 

 

[jakontil]

The senior lux from godox, this is photo taken from a friend.. im interested to get one too.. works auto in M10, i presumed he meant TTL 

 

got the smaller one in lux junior too if u find this size too offensive 

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[Huss]

3 hours ago, jakontil said:

The senior lux from godox, this is photo taken from a friend.. im interested to get one too.. works auto in M10, i presumed he meant TTL 

 

got the smaller one in lux junior too if u find this size too offensive 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

How is he syncing it? The M3 does not have a hot shoe.  Edit - I see it comes w a sync cable in the box.

Edited September 18, 2022 by Huss

[MikeMyers]

I won't need this for several months, and even then, I can just take my Fuji X100F and be done with it.  I didn't think this would get so complicated.  I also read up here:  https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/279141-reliable-ttl-flash-for-leica-m10/

Strangely, I found people talking about the Nikon SB-800 flash, that I still have sitting around from what feels like a lifetime ago.  Something to look into.  I'd want to be sure the SB-800 and M10 are compatible with each other.  

[Luke_Miller]

The Nikon SB-800 will work in Manual and Auto (Auto-Thyristor) modes.  In auto you have to manually enter aperture and ISO into the flash.

Edited September 18, 2022 by Luke_Miller

[MikeMyers]

If my goal was to provide a little bit of "fill flash" as needed, isn't this going to be "overkill", throwing much more light than needed at the subject?

[RexGig0]

Yes, do keep those SB-800 Speedlights. The older Nikon Speedlights have many uses, with many brands of cameras. According to something I read on the Strobist dot com website, long ago, it is a good idea to periodically load them with batteries, and fire several full-power flashes. Keep your SC-series flash sync cords, too, as they are correct for using with Leica flashes and cameras. I have not, however, personally verified whether a Nikon Speedlight should be connected to a Leica M camera, so, be certain to get that information from others.

On the original topic, I have used an SF-24D, on an M10, to provide a bit of fill, bounced from a nearby reflective surface, a few times. 

Edited September 18, 2022 by RexGig0

[RexGig0]

4 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

If my goal was to provide a little bit of "fill flash" as needed, isn't this going to be "overkill", throwing much more light than needed at the subject?

No, not overkill. The largest Speedlight can be dialed-down to provide just a flicker. One way to start, is to set the flash at 1/8 power, and set the camera to under-expose, just slightly. Check the exposure of the image, and adjust as necessary. If using an SB-800, or other Speedlight  with a tilting head and extendable white card, try aiming the flash head high, with the white card extended, so that the light reflects downward, onto the subject, in an indirect way.

Edited September 18, 2022 by RexGig0

[shanefking]

The Fuji Ef-x20 is very compact and very useful.  Manual use isn’t difficult 

 

 

[bherman01545]

On 9/16/2022 at 7:58 PM, MikeMyers said:

Lots going on in my life, sold and selling my Nikon DSLR cameras, with the intent being to do most of my photography with my M10.  I do have a question, that may or may not have an answer.

Over the past two weeks, in India, my D750 was already sold, and all I had left was my Fuji X100f.  A family asked me to take family photos, two adults and a very young girl.  The photos were to be in various places in their home, and some outside on a nearby path as the sun was setting.

I didn't like what I was getting, as some photos were back-lit, and many had the part of their face facing away from the window in shadow.  As Ken Rockwell described, the Fuji has a tiny built-in flash, and with TTL it could be used as a fill-flash, not making my images look like I used a flash at all, but greatly improving those images.

If I visit India again, I expect to again be asked to do this.  Is there any miniature flash that fits the M10 that can accomplish this?  I expect I'm going to miss that fill-flash.

 

Is this an appropriate solution to my question?

https://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/sf-24d.htm

I have great results with the little Metz 34 CS-2 Digital. Three Auto F/Stops, full manual and a built-in slave. Takes 2 CR2 Lithium batteries. You can pick them up for around $100.00 in mint condition. They are made in Germany.

I never got consistent exposures with the SF24 or any other Leica TTL flashes. You're better off with full auto or manual.

-Brad

[Luke_Miller]

On 9/18/2022 at 7:22 PM, bherman01545 said:

II never got consistent exposures with the SF24 or any other Leica TTL flashes. You're better off with full auto or manual.

That is my experience.  Another thread in this forum discusses underexposure with bright backgrounds or light sources in the frame. This is exactly the time for fill flash, except the Leica TTL flash exposure metering produces the same underexposure.  In some cases it refuses to fire the flash at all.  Using manual flash settings or a flash that offers an auto-thyristor mode (where the flash controls the flash exposure) is the solution.  The SF-58 (which I have) and SF-64 are Leica dedicated Metz flashes and offer these modes but are discontinued.  The SF-40 is small and handles much better than the large Metz flashes but lacks the auto-thyristor mode. I use the SF-40 in manual when fill flash is needed and I don't want the handling issues of the SF-58.

[MikeMyers]

Let's say the M10 is on a tripod, aimed at a street scene with the sky in the background, and buildings and things more so in the foreground.  Presumably the M10 will select an exposure such that the sky is not "burnt out", and much of the image is under-exposed.  Burnt out areas can not be corrected, but underexposed areas can, so that's what I would hope the M10 would do.

Now, the sun comes out from behind a cloud, making that part of the sky exceptionally bright.  I would hope that the M10 would adjust accordingly, such that the sky does not get burnt out, but at a cost of making the foreground areas even more so underexposed.  Again, that's what I would hope my M10 would do.

Now, back to the questions that prompted me to post this thread - If possible, I would probably prefer to have a fill-flash mounted on top, that would light up what it could, to get me a better exposure.

2 hours ago, Luke_Miller said:

The SF-58 (which I have) and SF-64 are Leica dedicated Metz flashes and offer these modes but are discontinued.  The SF-40 is small and handles much better than the large Metz flashes but lacks the auto-thyristor mode. I use the SF-40 in manual when fill flash is needed and I don't want the handling issues of the SF-58.

I had expected to read here that I need to buy a TTL flash, that would give out enough light to help.  I guess I need to do a lot more reading about flash units, and maybe give up on finding what I was hoping to get.

 

2 hours ago, Luke_Miller said:

the Leica TTL flash exposure metering produces the same underexposure.  In some cases it refuses to fire the flash at all. 

What controls a Leica TTL flash?  The flash unit itself, or the camera?  I guess I have a lot more reading to do.....

Edited September 21, 2022 by MikeMyers

[Luke_Miller]

42 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

What controls a Leica TTL flash?  The flash unit itself, or the camera?  I guess I have a lot more reading to do.....

In Leica TTL the camera controls the flash exposure based on the pre-flash and using the camera metering system.  In Auto (auto-thyristor) the flash controls the flash exposure.  To do that it needs the camera ISO and Aperture as inputs.  The flash has a sensor that detects the flash reflected off the subject and quenches when proper exposure has been achieved.  This sidesteps the camera's overreaction to bright backgrounds or light sources in the frame.

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[MikeMyers]

Thanks, makes sense.

I spoke to Adam at the Leica Store in Miami.  He suggests the SF 40 for my purposes.  They have one in stock, and a display model, and he suggested I come to the store and try it.  It's expensive, but everything Leica is expensive.

 

If I have to make a choice between burned out parts of my image, or underexposed parts of my image, I'll go with the underexposure.  My editor, DxO PhotoLab, does a great job of retrieving underexposed areas without their becoming too noisy for me; with a burned out sky, I would delete the image.

Not sure what to do, but the SF 40 is starting to sound like my better choice.  Fortunately, there is no hurry to do anything right now.