Is it worth buying an older M Monochrom?

[kirkmc]

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I've had a Q2M for about a year, and I love the camera. The only thing I miss is using a lens like a 50mm. I know, I can crop, but still...

I've never used a rangefinder, and I was wondering if I might want to trade in the Q2M for the M11 Monochrom, when it's released. But also, is it worth buying an older M Monochrom? I'm in the UK, and I see typ 246 models for less than £3,000. But I've also read that many people find the first CCD version better; what's the general opinion on that? Now that I have used a Monochrom, I realize that even the 18 Mp of the first model is more than sufficient.

I should add that I've never used a rangefinder, so this would be a new experience. 

Any thoughts? 

Edited August 31, 2022 by kirkmc

[a.noctilux]

Hello @kirkmc

Only you can decide.

So if you don't try, you would never know.

My first advice is going to a shop (or find somebody RF user) with Leica M then see by yourself if you can use RF.

I use the two Monochroms happily, so each one can do (for me).

Maybe a more modern M246 for first M, the other MM1 can be a bridge too far, but why not if you can accept 18Mpix and some "old characters" slowish M (time to record for example), no LV.

In results, I know that for me, they give me very nice results hardly different from each other = I never see the CCD/CMOS characters myself.

For me only using one of them can help making decision.

 

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[kirkmc]

I’ve contacted the Leica store here in the UK to see if I can get a test drive of the M 11, so I can understand what it’s like to use a rangefinder. that’s definitely the first step before making this type of commitment.

 

[Alberti]

The first version has a great 'signature'.

Why buy lenses with a certain signature and draw and not do that with the bodies?

I like the older one I have with it great image look. In practice the 18MP is enough for large prints - somehow the quality exceeds the size. And it is fast - wake-up, focus.

[jankap]

You should decide, what you need. Pictures on paper? Walking around with a rangefinder with a red something? What about the coming Hassy? Do you collect technics? Difficult. For me a full frame mirrorless suffices, I take pictures and use Photoshop, TOPAZ, etc. 

[pippy]

2 hours ago, kirkmc said:

...Now that I have used a Monochrom, I realize that even the 18 Mp of the first model is more than sufficient......I should add that I've never used a rangefinder, so this would be a new experience.

Any thoughts? 

First-off, as you clearly understand, you must discover whether you will enjoy the rangefinder experience or whether it would be, for you, a monumental PITA. This point cannot be stressed enough. Secondly; consider what you require from your camera in terms of output. What is the end-use of your photographs? Do you make prints? If so how big a print would you be likely to require?

I have an original M Monochrom and its 18Mp files are perfectly capable of being reproduced at A2 size. Even going up to A1 would be fine as the 'correct viewing distance' would require the viewer to look at the print from far enough back such that any pixellation visible at very close range would be invisible under 'normal' viewing circumstances.

As far as the CCD / CMOS debate goes that, I'm afraid, is a matter for personal judgement. Hundreds - if not thousands - of internet-pages have been filled with heated arguments proclaiming the superiority of one over the other. From the stuff which I read most of these opinions (IMO!) could be dismissed as utter twaddle in 'real world' terms.

FWIW at one point I had a pair of M9 bodies (CCD) as well as my M-D Typ-262 (CMOS). Yes; there was a different 'look' to the images from the two sensor types but nothing (IMO!) so great as to make one sensor intrinsically 'better' than the other and, in any case, these differences could only really be discerned at 100% (or greater) magnification on-screen. On a high quality print only the very closest scrutiny would reveal any difference and, as stated, the changes are so unimportant (IMO!) as to be completely meaningless.

'Apples and Oranges', I know, but having shown a number of visually astute friends (including Digi-M shooters) A3 prints from the Monochrom and similar A3 B'n'W-converted prints from the M-D no-one has been able to say which print was made by which camera. Not once.

Original M Monochroms in good condition are quite thin on the ground these days. The earliest examples will be 10-y-old next month and even the newest ones will be 7-y-o so buying from a reputable dealership would be advised. M246 bodies are comparatively plentiful. One well-known dealer 'up north' currently has three MM priced at £2,7k and no fewer than 8 M246 ranging from £2,750 to £3,150.

Stating the obvious ensure that any M Monochrom you might think about buying has the new sensor (cover-glass) fitted. Dealerships don't, as a rule, offer non-converted bodies for sale as it would be impossible to guarantee the camera against the cover-glass corrosion issue. The M246, OTOH, is a far safer bet all things considered.

Rather than selling your current Q2M before you are sure you will take to the r/f I'd suggest that you first acquire one of the older versions. If you do gel with the r/f experience then you could always trade-in the Monochrom - without taking much of a financial hit - along with your Q2M if you decide to shell-out for the M11M at some point in the future.

Good luch with your choices!

Philip.

Edited August 31, 2022 by pippy

[kirkmc]

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Philip,

Thanks for your extensive comments. I do agree about trying out a rangefinder first; though I have experience of film back in the day when focusing meant lining up the two semi-circles in the viewfinder, so it's probably not that different. 

I don't print, so I'm not that worried about resolution. But what I love about the Q2M is that I can crop so much because of the 47 Mp. However, if I'm using, say, a 50mm lens, then I wouldn't be cropping as I do with a 28. 

CCD vs CMOS; thanks for your thoughts.

I am wondering if a 10-year old camera has legs any more. There are a couple on eBay in the low £2000s, but it's not much more to get an M246. 

I'm not planning to sell the Q2M. For now, this would be in addition. The other alternative, as I mentioned, is waiting for the M11M, but in that case, I would have to sell the Q. I'd kind of like to be able to have both, because the Q is a wonderful camera. I just want a bit more possibilities in focal lengths. 

[pippy]

1 hour ago, kirkmc said:

...I have experience of film back in the day when focusing meant lining up the two semi-circles in the viewfinder, so it's probably not that different...

...what I love about the Q2M is that I can crop so much because of the 47 Mp. However, if I'm using, say, a 50mm lens, then I wouldn't be cropping as I do with a 28...

I am wondering if a 10-year old camera has legs any more. There are a couple on eBay in the low £2000s, but it's not much more to get an M246...

Hi, Kirk, and thanks for the reply. As far as the points you raise above are concerned;

Depending on which split-image screen you were familiar with you'll find using the Leica r/f patch a similar experience and probably even easier as the focus-patch is larger.

Correct; using a 50mm on either an 18Mp MM or a 24Mp M246 will give you something close to the same file size as cropping into a '50mm' wth the Q2M. Here is a rough guide to see the areas covered by 50mm and 28mm lenses expressed as a field of view comparison image. If you consider the outer white box-frame to be that captured by the 28mm on the 47Mp sensor the inner box-frame represents that area of the sensor which would be used when a 50mm equiv. crop has been selected;

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As far as the MM / M246 question goes then that's plainly a very personal choice. From an impartial point of view considering how little difference there is in asking-price (in Leica terms) I'd say that the newer camera would be the more sensible option. On the other hand I opted to go with the M Monochrom.

Both types should be able to hold fairly close to their current values so whichever way you choose to go - if any! - it will work out much the same from the financial point of view should you choose to trade-in at some future point.

Of course should you pick up an MM for around the £2k mark or an M246 for c. £3k you might find the hankering after the future M11M wanes once you get used to using one and then keeping the Q2M is still very much on the cards.

Good luck!

Philip.

Edited August 31, 2022 by pippy

[rtai]

If you have never used a rangefinder then my advice would be to buy one and see for yourself. The M246 seems to be a bargain these days. I have the M10M and would never part with it and at the time it was worth the cost of a new camera. In pure mathematical terms I figured I can get at least 15 years of hard use from a new camera before selling it for above salvage value. Whereas if I had bought a used previous model with years on the clock the math wouldn’t be better per year of usage. And I get a more current camera with up to date bells and whistles, better support, etc. 

As for M9M vs later models it just personal preference. I have photographer friends who liked the files from the M246 more. It’s like switching film from TMax 100 to Acros or Tri-X. How you do post processing and which lenses you use will also determine the final look of the files.

[kirkmc]

3 hours ago, pippy said:

As far as the MM / M246 question goes then that's plainly a very personal choice. From an impartial point of view considering how little difference there is in asking-price (in Leica terms) I'd say that the newer camera would be the more sensible option. On the other hand I opted to go with the M Monochrom.

Both types should be able to hold fairly close to their current values so whichever way you choose to go - if any! - it will work out much the same from the financial point of view should you choose to trade-in at some future point.

Of course should you pick up an MM for around the £2k mark or an M246 for c. £3k you might find the hankering after the future M11M wanes once you get used to using one and then keeping the Q2M is still very much on the cards.

Yes, I was thinking that the newer one would be better, just because the technology has certainly improved. And long term, I could imagine getting the M11M, selling the first M (if I do buy one), and deciding whether to also keep the Q2M, which is an astounding camera.

 

Kirk

[kirkmc]

1 hour ago, rtai said:

If you have never used a rangefinder then my advice would be to buy one and see for yourself. The M246 seems to be a bargain these days. I have the M10M and would never part with it and at the time it was worth the cost of a new camera. In pure mathematical terms I figured I can get at least 15 years of hard use from a new camera before selling it for above salvage value. Whereas if I had bought a used previous model with years on the clock the math wouldn’t be better per year of usage. And I get a more current camera with up to date bells and whistles, better support, etc. 

As for M9M vs later models it just personal preference. I have photographer friends who liked the files from the M246 more. It’s like switching film from TMax 100 to Acros or Tri-X. How you do post processing and which lenses you use will also determine the final look of the files.

Thanks, all valid points. My guess is that with post-processing, there's less of a difference now than back when the M246 came out. I use Capture One, and its ability to process Q2M files is quite good, and offers many possibilities. 

[ramarren]

I guess I'm too old to understand all the cautionary stuff about "find out whether you can get along with using the rangefinder" etc. I find using a manual focus rangefinder camera to be much easier and much more consistent (and similarly a manual focus SLR), overall, than using any autofocus camera. 

I have owned and used Leica M cameras since about 1970. Of the digital models, I've had the M9, M-P240, M-D262, and now the M10 Monochrom. In 2014, I desperately wanted an M246 and had orders in with two dealers, but they were in such short supply that I waited three-quarters of a year and it never materialized. I bought the M10-M this past May, and I'm absolutely delighted by it. 

If you are anything like me (hah!), once you have an M10-M or M246 in your hands, you'll never use the Q2M again. There's a reason the Leica M has been around in production for so soooo long: It's just such a fantastic camera to use! It always just feels right in the hand. 

I would not go with an M9 Monochrom at this point in time. Although it was/is a fine camera, the technology has moved on and it is fifteen years behind, the M9 sensors had issues, etc. The M246 and now M10-M are both better technology now, and the expected M11-M will likely be as well. The later models have much more sensitivity with lower noise and are much more responsive in use. The viewfinder in the M240, M262, and M10 line seems nicely improved over the one in the M9 as well, at least to my eye. 

Of course, you have to make your own decisions on such things. Any of these camera in good condition is a joy. 

G

[Jeff S]

All personal choice.  Some bond with the RF experience; some don’t.  I did immediately back in the 80’s and continue to this day with both the M(9) Monochrom and M10 Monochrom (and M10-R BP).  When I bought the M10-M, I expected to sell the M(9)M, but haven’t yet been able to part with it.  The M10 platform is objectively better in many ways… quieter, better build quality and tolerances, improved weather sealing, better VF (larger diameter, higher magnification and better eye relief), slimmer, frame lines optimized for 2m (vs 1m in the M9), much higher MP (significantly more in the Monochrom than even the standard M10), higher ISO capability, etc.  And yet the M9M file quality is still terrific, and it remains the only digital M with a RAW-based histogram (helpful for minding important Monochrom highlights). At the end of the day, the prints tell the story. 
 

I bought my M(9) Monochrom in 2017 used from a reputable dealer with low mileage, new sensor and full Leica service with warranty. I could sell it now for several hundred dollars more than I paid, but still enjoy it despite its older tech and build.  I would still buy one under similar condition and circumstances, although the M10-M is unquestionably a better machine.  But machines alone don’t make pics and prints.

I’ve not tried the M246, but did own the M240. It’s a fine machine. I prefer the M10 platform, although the M240 platform is improved over the M9 in many ways. With the M10-M, I have no interest in the expected M11-M.

Only way to really judge these matters is to try.

Jeff

[Linford]

It is like dancing with a new partner. You don’t know what its like until you try it. I had the M9M when it was released. Loved it. So I bought the M246 when it was released—figured I would “upgrade”. It was a great camera but I liked the rendering and images of the M9M more. Fortunately, I had sold the original Monochrom to a friend and I was able to buy it back when he went for the M10M. For me, it until death do us part with the M9M original Monochrom. Your mileage may vary. What does it hurt to try. These cameras are always re-salable if the footwork doesn’t workout. Good luck!

 

[sometimesmaybe]

On 8/31/2022 at 9:15 PM, kirkmc said:

is it worth buying an older M Monochrom? I'm in the UK, and I see typ 246 models for less than £3,000

i think all the key considerations have been well covered by everyone else. the only thing i'll add is that the m246 gives you liveview and you can use an EVF if you decide the OVF experience isn't for you. i have bad eyesight so using the OVF is just too hard for anything above 50mm 

[jonnyboy]

The used market is flooded with Q2 Mono these days, I think a lot of people regret the purchase. I have a normal Q and, as you said, cropping it's just not the same...if you use the Q it means you want to shoot the with the 28, period.

In terms of Monochroms, I came from an M8, then M9 Mono and now I have an M246. I don't think there is any point in getting anything too dated...the M9Mono is cool and everything, but the buffer and all the limitations are really outdated now. If you have money to splash around you can get it, it's a lovely camera....but if you want to get 1, I think the M246 it's amazing even by today's standard: Live view, great battery life, buffer is semi-decent...overall built like a tank, built to last. I got mine from the store in Mayfair 2-3 years ago for £3100 in like-new conditions, not even a single mark on the body with Leica warranty and all that.
M10 Mono are still quite expensive and you don't see many in the used market, maybe things will change when they announce the M11 Mono...

[Herr Barnack]

If you decide that a rangefinder camera will work for you, shop around for a clean used M10 Monochrom. 

For black and white photography, it is hard to imagine needing more camera than the M10M.  

Edited October 14, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[RexGig0]

It can take some time to know whether a rangefinder will suit one’s way of shooting. I immediately liked using the rangefinder, but, that is not the case, with everyone. I was able to test-shoot pre-owned and demonstrator M9 and M Type 240 cameras, several times, at a nearby Leica dealer. I was, already, comfortable using manual-focus Nikon F-mount lenses, especially favoring some wonderful Zeiss SLR lenses.

I do believe that the Type 246 Monochrom remains a viable and useful camera, which is why I decided to buy lenses, earlier this year, rather than “upgrade” to an M10 Monochrom. It seemed more important to add “faster” 75mm, 50mm, and 21mm lenses, which would let more light reach the sensors of my M Type 246 and original M10 cameras. The high ISO results, posted by David Farkas at Red Dot Forum dot com, showing how well the 246 performs, against the M10 Monochrom, helped me to make my decision.

Notably, buying these lenses occurred just before my income was about to diminish, post-retirement, so, the decision was not made lightly. It will be difficult for me to fund an M10 Monochrom, new or pre-owned, in the future, but, I have not yet regretted my decision. I still like the Type 246. (My future lens buying has also been curtailed, unless I start working again, in a job that suits my age.)

I have no experience with the original, M9-based Monochrom. I started Leica M shooting with an M10, and then added an M Type 246.

Edited October 20, 2022 by RexGig0