Leica iiif firing at seemingly the same speed no matter the choice

[Junebat]

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Hey all! I recently got ahold of a new iiif, and it seems like every shutter speed is shooting at the same speed. This is actually the second camera I've gotten that has had this issue (the first YYe is eventually going to work on) but was curious if anyone here knows what might cause this. It sounds somewhat fast, maybe 1/100ish. Bulb works normally, and T mostly works, but pretty much everything else sounds the same. Thanks!

[david strachan]

Yours is not to wonder why...just send for full CLA...as expected for a camera maybe 70 yrs old.

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2 hours ago, Junebat said:

everything else sounds the same

The shutter always moves at the same speed at all times from about 1/20 on. The exposure of the frame is controlled by the distance of the two curtains. For short times the curtains are close together, forming but a small slit. For longer times the distance between the curtains is long enough to expose for a brief moment the whole frame at once, allowing the flash to illuminate all of the picture area.

It's a focal plane shutter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal-plane_shutter).

[Matlock]

3 hours ago, Junebat said:

Hey all! I recently got ahold of a new iiif, and it seems like every shutter speed is shooting at the same speed. This is actually the second camera I've gotten that has had this issue (the first YYe is eventually going to work on) but was curious if anyone here knows what might cause this. It sounds somewhat fast, maybe 1/100ish. Bulb works normally, and T mostly works, but pretty much everything else sounds the same. Thanks!

Check that the rewind lever is fully in the 'A' position, If even slightly away it will give this fault.

[willeica]

5 hours ago, Junebat said:

Hey all! I recently got ahold of a new iiif, and it seems like every shutter speed is shooting at the same speed. This is actually the second camera I've gotten that has had this issue (the first YYe is eventually going to work on) but was curious if anyone here knows what might cause this. It sounds somewhat fast, maybe 1/100ish. Bulb works normally, and T mostly works, but pretty much everything else sounds the same. Thanks!

Check Matlock's point, but what you describe is not uncommon. The best quick test is to put a business card behind the shutter. You should be able to read some of the writing up to about 1/200th.

William 

[Junebat]

Thanks, I'll try some of this. I'm very familiar with these cameras, so I know it's not sounding correct (though there could be some variation in high speeds that I'm not detecting). I did have the issue with the advance/rewind lever with another so I did try that but maybe I'll tinker with it a bit more. Maybe once YYe fixes my last one I can ask him what the issue was, though I'm guessing it's just something gummed up in there.

[Herr Barnack]

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Old cameras are like old men - they need a CLA every now and then (said the old man who will turn 65 in two more days 😟 ).

[Junebat]

Small update is that I have been working the shutter a bit and the fast speeds are sounding a little more appropriate, so I guess it's just gummed up in there a bit. I'm gonna fire it off a few hundred more times and see if I can get it going. Depending how I feel, this camera may be my guinea pig for trying to open it up/do a little CLA of it myself. Or I may just offload it as is so someone else can do that work for it, as I definitely don't need another body to send away for a CLA. 

 

But now it's looking like it may be firing okay from 1/30 up? Just none of the slower speeds are really getting triggered correctly. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Junebat

[TomB_tx]

The slow speeds have a separate mechanism for timing the delay on the closing curtain. This escapement mechanism often gets gummed up with old lubricants, and may need solvent cleaning and re-lubing.

[Pyrogallol]

Just imagine it’s a 11f and doesn’t have slow speeds.

[Matlock]

Have you tried taking some photos with it? Going just by the sound of the shutter is no answer. Give it a go at a variety of speeds and see what results you get.

[Junebat]

36 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

Just imagine it’s a 11f and doesn’t have slow speeds.

Haha, I have a iif that's in the shop, but if it's in good enough shape to be useable at 1/30 and above that's not too shabby (I never shoot lower than that myself)

10 minutes ago, Matlock said:

Have you tried taking some photos with it? Going just by the sound of the shutter is no answer. Give it a go at a variety of speeds and see what results you get.

I've done more than just listen to the sound, but I just put a roll through it and will develop it soon, will see how well it's handling 1/30 and above. 

56 minutes ago, TomB_tx said:

The slow speeds have a separate mechanism for timing the delay on the closing curtain. This escapement mechanism often gets gummed up with old lubricants, and may need solvent cleaning and re-lubing.

Yeah I'm thinking I may see if I can get at that mechanism and see what's what, shouldn't be too hard provided all goes well. 

[Junebat]

Update: the high speeds started to seem fine with some working (fired it and fired it for a good while, at various speeds), and I ended up taking it apart and soaking the slow speed escapement (and then lubing it extremely lightly) and after a few hiccups it seems like I've got a real user on my hands.

Speeds now sound pretty good across the range, so sounds like the shutter just needed some exercise and then a good overhaul of the slow speed escapement.

So if anyone finds a camera like this in the future, where every speed seems pretty indistinct, some exercise might get the higher speeds to sound a bit more distinct, and then a good soak and lube and reinstall of the escapement will hopefully get the slow speeds on track. 

Sincerely kind of impressed I got it working! The problem is that now that I've had this victory (I also had to readjust the rangefinder patch) I feel kind of attached to the camera, though I know I should probably sell it. 

[qqphot]

i discovered recently that the "high speed camera" on my android phone (galaxy s10) is fast enough to film the full travel of the shutter, so you can see the slit move across the frame in a dozen or so frames, which is enough to get quite a good feel for possible issues with it - like, does it fully open at the beginning, does it widen across its travel the right amount, are the opening and closing edges parallel, etc. It's pretty informative.

[Junebat]

8 hours ago, qqphot said:

i discovered recently that the "high speed camera" on my android phone (galaxy s10) is fast enough to film the full travel of the shutter, so you can see the slit move across the frame in a dozen or so frames, which is enough to get quite a good feel for possible issues with it - like, does it fully open at the beginning, does it widen across its travel the right amount, are the opening and closing edges parallel, etc. It's pretty informative.

I was considering trying this but didn't go through with it! I can definitely see it as is a useful tool for diagnosing some of this stuff. 

[doctorlebel]

If you decide to sell it, I just might be interested in it.  I refurbish Leica IIIf cameras all the time.

[qqphot]

On 8/17/2022 at 6:18 AM, Junebat said:

I was considering trying this but didn't go through with it! I can definitely see it as is a useful tool for diagnosing some of this stuff. 

It's 960 frames per second, so you can even figure out timings and stuff from it. On my IIIg it takes about 29 frames for the shutter to complete its motion, so around 30 ms, though nothing about that camera's shutter is adjusted right.  You can even load it up in an image editor and mark off how far it moves and how the gap widens across its travel.

[TomB_tx]

I still keep an old CRT TV with a video source just for checking shutters. At high speeds you see a narrow diagonal strip illuminated that is slightly curved due to the velocity change as the curtains travel. With a magnifier examining the negative you can count the scan lines on the CRT and determine the exposure time across the frame. It may take a few exposures at each speed to get the results.

[qqphot]

Since I've been trying mostly unsuccessfully to get the shutter on my IIIg to illuminate evenly across the frame, I came up with an even better way of testing the effects of adjustments.  I found that the 960 fps high speed camera wasn't really sufficient for timing faster speeds.

A weak laser focused to a narrow point is aimed through the mount at the exact area of the frame I want to measure, and a fast photodiode registers light reflected off that spot. As the shutter slit passes that spot, white paper at the film plane reflects more light than the black of the shutter curtain, and a Saleae logic analyzer records the pulse.  This can be almost arbitrarily precise but 30kHz works fine (and 50 MHz is overkill :).  The width of the beam is probably the biggest contributor to inaccuracy here but it's still probably not worse than 0.5mm in practical terms.

I found my shutter at "250" is now about 1/194th at the opening side, about 1/267th in the middle, and about 1/310th at the closing side, repeatably. I don't want to mess with it too much but this is bad enough to be quite noticeable in pictures, unfortunately. At least now I can immediately measure the exact effect of any adjustment, though.

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Edited October 5, 2022 by qqphot

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Hallo,

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