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New Pana-Leica camera soon?


oldwino
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32 minutes ago, MJB said:

But, if Leica delivered such a camera, it would render both the SL and M lines obsolete (IMO - flame suit on).

Could simply be the SL3. Not as compact as CL users might want or need but in the R4 to R7 tradition. M cameras could stay with a built-in rangefinder and SL users would do like Leicaflex or R3 ones in the past, i.e. upgrade to the new TTL camera. Pure speculation on my part.

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1 hour ago, MJB said:

if Leica delivered such a camera, it would render both the SL and M lines obsolete (IMO - flame suit on).

It wouldn't be the first time people have called the M obsolete, or even the thousandth time! That's part of the M's charm, it's as obsolete as a grand piano. M users wouldn't have it any other way.

I'm not sure I get your point about a new version of the SL making the SL obsolete. Isn't that the point, to make you think that your current camera is obsolete so you will buy a new one?

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Am 26.8.2022 um 15:45 schrieb BernardC:

It wouldn't be the first time people have called the M obsolete, or even the thousandth time! That's part of the M's charm, it's as obsolete as a grand piano. M users wouldn't have it any other way.

I'm not sure I get your point about a new version of the SL making the SL obsolete. Isn't that the point, to make you think that your current camera is obsolete so you will buy a new one?

I agree! 
The „Messsucher“ makes the M unique on the market.


If you look at the comments here and everywhere else there remains the desire for something lighter and smaller with L-mount. Why wouldn’t Leica react to it. At the same time the discontinuation of the TL and CL leaves a lot of room for a new entry level camera but with FF sensor. A CL2 with FF sensor would make a lot of sense.

The SL3 could remain the professional high resolution tool. Fun fact: if you scale the GH6 sensor to FF you get 96MP with almost exactly 12000x8000px …
 

Someone who is interested in a 96MP (or whatever it will be…) SL3 won‘t consider a lower resolution FF CL2 as an alternative. Same goes for the M. If you want the analog M experience you don‘t consider a FF CL. But in both cases the FF CL would be a great addition.

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Well, a real hybrid rangefinder EVF/optical viewfinder could be interesting - rotating camera instead of the RF mirror, image projected on a semi-transparant LCD in the optical viewfinder, together with the applicable frameline and  standard EVF info. 

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  • 1 month later...
On 8/8/2022 at 11:38 AM, lct said:

I would like a body as compact as the Sigma fp-L with global shutter and built-in EVF but 2023 is perhaps too soon for that. We shall see.

Agree. I do not see the benefit of IBIS in 'normal' photography. As I see it, it only is optimal with electronic coupled data (that is, just taking 50mm in the pop-up menu instead of 52 mm looks like a small mistake. . . but wouldn't that potentially nullify the benefit of the accuracy of the algorithm?)

Not to soon at all: it then is just a stripped M11 😇 just like my S5 is a stripped S1 with maybe the same sensor.

For those working with video or extra long-tele work (horses on the beach, wild animals in the mountains or bushbush) - that type is different, let them have their own type of camera.

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19 minutes ago, cboy said:

Well if it's a rebranded Pana camera like just released then I don't think it's worth the time.

Didn't they mention Panasonic won't make small digital camera. Looks to me they made a small digital camera...

https://photorumors.com/2022/09/29/panasonic-announced-two-new-cameras-in-japan-lumix-g99d-and-lumix-tx2d/

dc watch impress seems to suggest supply chain issues forced the LCD to OLED screen change; no other enhancements.

https://dc-watch-impress-co-jp.translate.goog/docs/news/1443445.html?_x_tr_sl=ja&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

There is also an article saying Sony is restarting production of the a6600

https://dc-watch-impress-co-jp.translate.goog/docs/news/1443508.html?_x_tr_sl=ja&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

 

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2 hours ago, cboy said:

Well if it's a rebranded Pana camera like just released then I don't think it's worth the time.

Didn't they mention Panasonic won't make small digital camera. Looks to me they made a small digital camera...

https://photorumors.com/2022/09/29/panasonic-announced-two-new-cameras-in-japan-lumix-g99d-and-lumix-tx2d/

I wouldn't worry too much. Nobody wants clone cameras, especially not Panasonic and Leica. I think we'll see shared sensors (like we already do), and many shared internal modules, but the bodies will look and act different.

Panasonic said that they would stop making very cheap cameras, the kind that have lost their market share to smartphones.

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  • 2 weeks later...
2 hours ago, Planetwide said:

I think a digital M camera is inevitable. Sooner or later, if Leica doesn't do it, someone in china will... If Fuji was smart, they could make one tomorrow, and it would sell like pancakes.

Fuji would have to revert to FF cameras in the first place but why would they do that with an M mount? They could use an adapter for sure but they would have to design a thin sensor stack with microlenses to avoid soft corners. And all this sans 6-bit coding for M lenses they would not sell. I would not hold my breath :cool:.

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58 minutes ago, lct said:

Fuji would have to revert to FF cameras in the first place but why would they do that with an M mount? They could use an adapter for sure but they would have to design a thin sensor stack with microlenses to avoid soft corners. And all this sans 6-bit coding for M lenses they would not sell. I would not hold my breath :cool:.

6Bit is easy. Kolari has shown that designing a thin sensor stack is also easily done. It is only a matter of time...

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37 minutes ago, Planetwide said:

6Bit is easy. Kolari has shown that designing a thin sensor stack is also easily done. It is only a matter of time...

Only way for 6-bit to be easy is to be allowed by Leica i'm afraid. Now why not a collaboration between Leica and Fuji after all... Leica did collaborate with Fuji in the past. Would be funny to see Fuji in the L alliance. This could please CL users at least...

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15 hours ago, Planetwide said:

6Bit is easy. Kolari has shown that designing a thin sensor stack is also easily done. It is only a matter of time...

Hasn't Kolari shown the exact opposite? Their modified cameras were only ever 1/10th as good as the genuine article from Leica. Last time I checked, they hardly even mentioned M compatibility in their promotional material anymore.

6-bit is easy. The codes are published. The only problem is that anyone who wants to support 6-bit codes will need access to a sample of each and every coded lens in order to test and optimize their lens correction algorithms. They'll need to do this for every sensor that they use, and keep doing this for the foreseeable future. They also need to make expensive design changes to all of their sensors in order to be acceptably good at supporting M lenses. What do they get in return? Nothing. They will have spent millions in order to lose lens sales to Leica! They'll even have employees who's full-time job is to make sure that they lose lens sales...

It gets even worse: because they can't ever be as good as Leica at supporting M lenses, they'll need to compete on price alone. You would think that there's still plenty of room "below Leica" in the market, but the major manufacturers all sell cameras that are just as expensive as the SL2 and SL2S, and used Leica SL and M cameras can be had from reputable dealers all over the world. So they need to sell they camera for even less than they would have if it didn't support Leica lenses, they only appeal to cheapskates who certainly won't buy expensive accessories, and they have limited prospects for lens sales! Try selling that business plan to your board of directors!

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26 minutes ago, BernardC said:

Hasn't Kolari shown the exact opposite? Their modified cameras were only ever 1/10th as good as the genuine article from Leica.

I would not say this. My Kolari mod A7r2 can compete with SL cameras as far as M lenses are concerned and can even beat my M240 with M lenses like S-A 21/3.4. Cannot compete with the M11 though. Now i'm not aware of Kolari Vision working on any Fuji camera so far. 

Edited by lct
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1 hour ago, lct said:

I would not say this. My Kolari mod A7r2 can compete with SL cameras as far as M lenses are concerned and can even beat my M240 with M lenses like S-A 21/3.4. Cannot compete with the M11 though. Now i'm not aware of Kolari Vision working on any Fuji camera so far. 

Even Kolari didn't claim excellent results for the A7r2 at the time. Their page (still available) only claims "good" corner sharpness with rangefinder lenses, at the expense of UV and IR contamination.

They offer conversions on Fuji cameras, but these are infrared and full-spectrum conversions. You could contact them about a "rangefinder lens" conversion. It's not a line of business that they have pursued or advertised for years, but maybe they can do it.

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1 minute ago, BernardC said:

Even Kolari didn't claim excellent results for the A7r2 at the time. Their page (still available) only claims "good" corner sharpness with rangefinder lenses, at the expense of UV and IR contamination.

They offer conversions on Fuji cameras, but these are infrared and full-spectrum conversions. You could contact them about a "rangefinder lens" conversion. It's not a line of business that they have pursued or advertised for years, but maybe they can do it.

Been a Kolari user on 2 Sony bodies since 2015 so i can only confirm what i said above FWIW :cool:. Couple of pics with Kolari mod A7r2 and S-A 21/3.4 linked below. JFI.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Sony-A7r2-Leica-2134-pre-asph/i-89hqtTB/1/71535fad/X4/DSC00337_si-X4.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Sony-A7r2-Leica-2134-pre-asph/i-h7hrJ6q/0/45c93d0e/X4/DSC00367_si-X4.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Sony-A7r2-Leica-2134-pre-asph/i-tp2RwMN/0/e8502f2e/X4/DSC02238_si-X4.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Sony-A7r2-Leica-2134-pre-asph/i-4NbWTWb/2/8d4d68b9/X4/DSC02651_si-X4.jpg

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44 minutes ago, Planetwide said:

I am thinking of the Kolari M9 sensor glass replacement, which by most accounts is every bit as good as the original Leica.

 

https://kolarivision.com/product/leica_m9_repair/

That's a very interesting option for M9 owners with corroded sensor glass. In this case they are replacing like-for-like, so the imaging performance goes back to what it was when new.

It always amazes me how the M9 is one of the few digital cameras that is still popular and useful, 13 years after it was released.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/16/2022 at 12:40 PM, Planetwide said:

I am thinking of the Kolari M9 sensor glass replacement, which by most accounts is every bit as good as the original Leica.

 

https://kolarivision.com/product/leica_m9_repair/

It is not without problems IMO get a Leica-replaced sensor camera 

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