New Pana-Leica camera soon?

[jaapv]

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But the technology should  match - words are just a label, and the rest is speculation.

[cboy]

So being consistent with the existing  L mount alliance I'm guessing the Pana Leica Collab will have the L mount?

Perhaps crop sensor camera with internals by Panasonic and co engineered with Leica aesthetics. Or lenses designed by Leica and manufactured by Panasonic? Much like the M4/3 line. Video centric in its target market since it'll hurt Leicas' bottom line if it was a photo centric camera.

Not sure in what way would a Pana Leica collab to create a Rangefinder style FF L mount camera benifit Leica. It would hurt Leicas' SL sales.

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[jaapv]

20 hours ago, Planetwide said:

How are the corners on the S5 with the 18mm?

Slightly smeared, but the lens is quite usable for normal use (who would use an 18 for this subject?)

 

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[BernardC]

4 hours ago, cboy said:

So being consistent with the existing  L mount alliance I'm guessing the Pana Leica Collab will have the L mount?

Perhaps crop sensor camera with internals by Panasonic and co engineered with Leica aesthetics. Or lenses designed by Leica and manufactured by Panasonic?

The L mount is a given.

I think that any new SL will look and act very different from a future Lumix. They will share some internal components, and use the same software and hardware architecture, but they will have very different personalities. The goal of the collaboration is to minimize wasteful duplication of effort, not to create two versions of the same camera.

I'm sure that everyone realizes by now that a huge proportion of the development effort goes into software and electronics. The SL2 and S1H have different chips inside, and different software stacks, even though they share basic sensors (with minor differences), AF systems, lens mounts, etc. Those kinds of hidden differences aren't justifiable in a competitive market. End-users don't care which embedded-OS you use, or which specification of Bluetooth module, as long as they work.

I doubt this will have an effect on future lenses, other than the fact they they will probably share chips and motors as well.

The good news is that we are likely to see cameras with more differentiation, not less. We are also likely to see fewer software issues.

[BernardC]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

Slightly smeared, but the lens is quite usable for normal use (who would use an 18 for this subject?)

 

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That's similar to the smearing I get with the 21/2.8 (pre-Asph) on the fp. It works for some images, but the SL holds sharpness into the corners.

[jaapv]

28 minutes ago, BernardC said:

but the SL holds sharpness into the corners

By virtue of the parabolic microlenses.

[SrMi]

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3 hours ago, jaapv said:

By virtue of the parabolic microlenses.

AFAIK, SL holds sharpness into the corners because of the thinner glass stack in SL sensors.
Do we know for sure that the SL sensor has special microlenses? I thought only the digital Ms have special microlenses for steep angles. That is why Ms are still better than SLs when using problematic M lenses.

[jaapv]

Yes we do - it was exhaustively discussed when the SL came out.

[Chris W]

I can't see much attraction to another crop sensor camera.

I think Panasonic/Leica could do more to separate stills from video.

The S5 is one of the ugliest cameras I've ever seen (IMhumbleO). You could probably remove half the buttons if they did a non-video version.

I was watching a (well known) YouTuber talking about his Q2 Monochrome saying he missed some great shots because the camera switched from stills to video without him knowing (possibly a bug). How many people are really shooting video on a Q2 Monochrome?

[LocalHero1953]

13 minutes ago, Chris W said:

I can't see much attraction to another crop sensor camera.

I think Panasonic/Leica could do more to separate stills from video.

The S5 is one of the ugliest cameras I've ever seen (IMhumbleO). You could probably remove half the buttons if they did a non-video version.

I was watching a (well known) YouTuber talking about his Q2 Monochrome saying he missed some great shots because the camera switched from stills to video without him knowing (possibly a bug). How many people are really shooting video on a Q2 Monochrome?

I haven’t seen that YouTuber, but I suspect he is using the Q2 with full time menu on the EVF - a touch on the screen will switch to video, as it will with the SL2/S. I use the EVF in extended mode and it’s never happened to me. 

[lct]

All digital cameras have more or less microlenses i've been told. Can techies confirm that? Question is how microlenses are fit for M lenses, especially wides and UWA. The Leica version of the expected PanaLeica should have the best fit possible in this espect. No idea about the Pana version but i see no reason why it should be designed for M lenses that Panasonic does not sell.

[jdlaing]

1 hour ago, lct said:

All digital cameras have more or less microlenses i've been told. Can techies confirm that? Question is how microlenses are fit for M lenses, especially wides and UWA. The Leica version of the expected PanaLeica should have the best fit possible in this espect. No idea about the Pana version but i see no reason why it should be designed for M lenses that Panasonic does not sell.

A. It’s a collaboration between the two companies so offset micro lenses are a possibility as they should be.

B. Leica is not the only user of micro lenses.

C. There is no information regarding two versions of any camera ie: a Leica and a Panasonic version.

 

[BernardC]

2 hours ago, lct said:

All digital cameras have more or less microlenses i've been told. Can techies confirm that? Question is how microlenses are fit for M lenses, especially wides and UWA. The Leica version of the expected PanaLeica should have the best fit possible in this espect. No idea about the Pana version but i see no reason why it should be designed for M lenses that Panasonic does not sell.

Sensor diagrams typically show microlenses above each sensor element. These are designed to concentrate the incoming light so that more of it reaches into the "well." What Leica does different is that their lenses are oriented toward the centre of the image, which means that they catch offset rays better.

I don't know for sure, but I would imagine that Ms have a stronger offset effect, since they are designed to work with M lenses exclusively, whereas the SL sensors have an in-between offset.

That's only one the tricks that Leica can use to optimize their cameras for M lenses. They can also use software correction tailored for each historical M lens, using lens design data that other companies don't have. I suppose that Sigma and Panasonic (or any other manufacturer) could go shopping for copies of every M lens type, and reverse-engineer their optical diagram. They would then need to budget for developers to implement custom correction for each lens. The end result still wouldn't be as good as Leica's correction, so what's the point? The simple fact is that anyone who wants optimal results with M lenses will use a Leica camera (film or digital).

[bags27]

Couple of random thoughts:

1. I'm renting an S1R this week to test against my Fuji GFX-R. I use the Fuji almost exclusively for scanning negatives, but figured I'd get a bit more use out of the S1R, though I very rarely shoot digital. Wow! I really like the S1R. I tried liking the SL2 when it first came out, but couldn't convince myself. Either I've "evolved," or I just bond better with the S1R. Almost certainly swapping out the Fuji for the SIR. Both are now discontinued and unsupported: a lot of camera for a relatively small amount of money.

2. Digital skeptic that I am and hating Leica's marketing of the M11, I was sort of rooting against the M11. But, wow again. Some of the photos posted on this board are S-quality. If Panasonic-Leica can produce a mirrorless with that color science, it will more than earn its niche.

3. The other elephant in the consortium is Sigma, which is now apparently full steam ahead on its FF L mount Foveon. With in-body and lens stabilization, a highly restrictive ISO won't be quite as concerning to some (me included). Within its limitations, it might well produce mind-blowing photos. Still using my dp-Merrills, instead of the M10 and CL, when I do shoot digital.

Edited August 25, 2022 by bags27

[Chris W]

My FP could be my only camera if it wasn't for the electronic only shutter.

[lct]

All shutters will be electronic only tomorrow... or aftertomorrow . The M12 will have one to make room for IBIS perhaps and a Sigma FPL with global shutter will come soon or late hopefully. Interesting times...

[frame-it]

Nikon has filed a patent for an image sensor capable of both global shutter and rolling shutter operation.

https://petapixel.com/2022/03/18/nikon-designs-sensor-that-has-both-a-global-and-rolling-shutter/

 

>>>>>

ニコンが、グローバルシャッターとローリングシャッターの両方の動作が可能な撮像センサーの特許を出願しています。

 

• 出願人:株式会社ニコン
  公開番号:P2022043221
  出願番号:P2021210723
  公開日:2022-03-15
  発明の名称: 撮像素子
   
• 【課題】グローバルシャッタ動作とローリングシャッタ動作とを行うことが可能な撮像素子を提供する。
• グローバル電子シャッタ方式で駆動する撮像素子は、ローリング電子シャッタ方式による信号読出しを行うことが困難である。
• 本実施の形態による撮像素子は、グローバル電子シャッタ方式の動作と、ローリング電子シャッタ方式の動作とを行うことが可能に構成される。グローバルシャッタ動作の場合、各画素の蓄積開始のタイミングを同じにできるため、各行において蓄積の同時性を有する。 ローリングシャッタ動作の場合、各行の蓄積時間（電荷の生成時間）が同じでも、蓄積開始のタイミングが行毎に異なるため、各行において蓄積の同時性はない。

ニコンがグローバルシャッターとローリングシャッターの両方を搭載しているセンサーの特許を出願しており、転送経路を2つ設けることで、両方の動作を可能にしているようです。対象はレンズ交換式カメラでもレンズ固定式カメラでもよいとなっていますが、どのような用途を想定しているのか興味深いところですね。

[MJB]

On 8/18/2022 at 4:14 AM, lct said:

This way you'll get the Pana, i'll get the Leica and everyone's happy... except CL users praying for a luxury crop cam that will never see the light... Just kidding dear CL users .

I don't think CL users are wedded to the idea of an APS-C sensor - we just want a successor with similar external dimensions and form factor.  Full frame would be great, so long as it was of sufficient resolution to allow continued use of the TL lenses at a reasonable "crop mode" resolution.  But, if Leica delivered such a camera, it would render both the SL and M lines obsolete (IMO - flame suit on).

 

On 8/18/2022 at 6:23 AM, lct said:

I would not hold my breath. It it yet difficult (Leica says impossible) to cram IBIS in the M11. I have no info about that though.

Sony managed to cram both a full frame sensor and IBIS into the A7c, which is about the same size as the CL (albeit 100g heavier).  Pity about that 0.59x finder, though...

[MJB]

On 8/22/2022 at 10:43 PM, Planetwide said:

I am just hoping for a lighter SL3 with phase detect or equivalent, and a flip screen...

I am hoping Leica sticks to fixed screens personally.  I've never met a flippy screen that didn't cheapen the feel of the camera.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[MJB]

On 8/23/2022 at 9:03 AM, PeterGA said:

IMO the CL was the perfect evolution of the Leica "Gestalt" small, light and elegant. The only 'limitation' was its non FF sensor - I bought one to use as a teleconvertor for my 90-280L - but put a FF sensor in the body and it would be a better walk around proposition than the SL series. I really don't know why Leica dropped this body and styling why not just add a FF chip? - it is a beautiful camera and ticks the box for a Leica M with EVF - perhaps better than the Q with its fixed focal length 'limitation'.

Leica got so many things right with the CL that I think it will go down as a cult classic.  It's not very impressive on the spec sheet, but they just really nailed the intangibles, IMO.  Of course, most of the world thought it was ridiculously overpriced, and most of the Leicasphere wrote it off because of its APS-C sensor, but in terms of design and ergonomics (and, I would argue, even output) I think it's just sublime.  Imagine what they could've done with successive generations?

Edited August 26, 2022 by MJB