lct Posted August 19, 2022 Share #81 Posted August 19, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) Not sure where that mythical beast come from but M cameras are manual cameras having nothing to do with L-mount cameras having video and AF. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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jaapv Posted August 22, 2022 Share #82 Posted August 22, 2022 Taking inspiration of an M camera is not the same as being an M camera. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 22, 2022 Share #83 Posted August 22, 2022 14 minutes ago, jaapv said: Taking inspiration of an M camera is not the same as being an M camera. Leica never did this for TTL cameras as far as i remember. Don't mix towels and cloths, my grandmother used to say . Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planetwide Posted August 22, 2022 Share #84 Posted August 22, 2022 As much as I would like en EVF M camera, I don't think that we will see it. It kind of already exists in the SL line with the M adapter. Putting this camera out would just reduce the sales of the SL line, which is something that Leica does not want to do. The M lens compatibility, is one of the distinguishing factors between the Panasonic S series, and the SL line. I am just hoping for a lighter SL3 with phase detect or equivalent, and a flip screen... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 22, 2022 Share #85 Posted August 22, 2022 1 hour ago, lct said: Leica never did this for TTL cameras as far as i remember. Don't mix towels and cloths, my grandmother used to say . The CL clearly took inspiration from the Barnack series. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 22, 2022 Share #86 Posted August 22, 2022 13 minutes ago, Planetwide said: As much as I would like en EVF M camera, I don't think that we will see it. It kind of already exists in the SL line with the M adapter. Putting this camera out would just reduce the sales of the SL line, which is something that Leica does not want to do. The M lens compatibility, is one of the distinguishing factors between the Panasonic S series, and the SL line. I am just hoping for a lighter SL3 with phase detect or equivalent, and a flip screen... M lens compatibility is relative. My S5 works just fine with all my M lenses including the SE 18 mm and Voigtlander 12 mm Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planetwide Posted August 22, 2022 Share #87 Posted August 22, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have never tried the S5, but the M wides do not do so well on my S1r... The same lenses are fine on my SL2. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planetwide Posted August 22, 2022 Share #88 Posted August 22, 2022 How are the corners on the S5 with the 18mm? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanhulsenbeek Posted August 22, 2022 Share #89 Posted August 22, 2022 On 8/8/2022 at 3:16 PM, jaapv said: Those three lens iPhones are well into the 1000$+ range so they are competing with the lower to mid range mirrorless cameras. Image quality too. For night shots my iPhone 13Pro easily beats the CL. Absolutely. The Iphone 13Pro is awesome, to stay in the US vernacular. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 22, 2022 Share #90 Posted August 22, 2022 1 hour ago, jaapv said: The CL clearly took inspiration from the Barnack series. Hence not M cameras... A possible EVF-M could inspire from M cameras but i don't hold my breath... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 22, 2022 Share #91 Posted August 22, 2022 Nobody would call such a camera an M (for Messsucher). Maybe the Leica E (for EVF) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 22, 2022 Share #92 Posted August 22, 2022 18 minutes ago, jaapv said: Nobody would call such a camera an M (for Messsucher). Maybe the Leica E (for EVF) I would if it had an M mount, like M1, MD, MDa and MD-2. Now for the first time in history, the Visoflex for M11 is not a sluggish accessory. Leica could well then consider that M11, M12 and following M cameras have a sort of "built-in electronic viewfinder" together with the Visoflex, as suggested by our colleague @Overgaard here. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted August 22, 2022 Share #93 Posted August 22, 2022 On 8/8/2022 at 6:16 AM, jaapv said: Those three lens iPhones are well into the 1000$+ range so they are competing with the lower to mid range mirrorless cameras. Image quality too. For night shots my iPhone 13Pro easily beats the CL. I did some controlled tests and compared iPhone 13 Pro night images with those of D-LUX 7 (m43) and GRIII (APS-C). For night shots, my D-LUX 7 easily beats my iPhone 13 Pro. I have not tested my CL, but I assume the difference would be more significant. Yes, SOOC, the iPhone 13 Pro images look better on an iPhone screen. However, looking at iPhone 13 Pro night images in Lightroom, the shadows are blotchy and muddy; all detail has been lost. I would never print an iPhone night image on anything 11" x 8.5" or larger. An APS-C image, properly pre-processed with AI NR (e.g., DxO), allows incredible detail in the shadows. iPhone 13 Pro images look OK when there is lots of light. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 22, 2022 Share #94 Posted August 22, 2022 5 hours ago, lct said: I would if it had an M mount, like M1, MD, MDa and MD-2. Now for the first time in history, the Visoflex for M11 is not a sluggish accessory. Leica could well then consider that M11, M12 and following M cameras have a sort of "built-in electronic viewfinder" together with the Visoflex, as suggested by our colleague @Overgaard here. The M was called M mount because it was introduced on the M3. A Messsucher camera. Let’s not distort history to fit our arguments Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 22, 2022 Share #95 Posted August 22, 2022 11 minutes ago, jaapv said: The M was called M mount because it was introduced on the M3. A Messsucher camera. Let’s not distort history to fit our arguments History or marketing? Rangefinders existed well before M cameras. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/335308-new-pana-leica-camera-soon/?do=findComment&comment=4495076'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 22, 2022 Share #96 Posted August 22, 2022 That is true. Artillery too. But those were not Messsucher cameras - but an integrated Entfernungsmesser with a separate ocular. The M3 had the first integrated rangefinder-viewfinder. Hence Messsucher: Sucher means viewfinder, so "Measuring Viewfinder". The English "Rangefinder" is a mistranslation, as it lacks the viewfinder aspect present in German. The iiig did have framelines, but still a separate viewfinder and distance meter. Don't worry, this hypothetical camera will have an optional extra: a little tube of Leica-branded Red Dot Pattex Superglue, priced at a modest 169 €, to affix the L-M adapter permanently to the camera. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterGA Posted August 23, 2022 Share #97 Posted August 23, 2022 IMO the CL was the perfect evolution of the Leica "Gestalt" small, light and elegant. The only 'limitation' was its non FF sensor - I bought one to use as a teleconvertor for my 90-280L - but put a FF sensor in the body and it would be a better walk around proposition than the SL series. I really don't know why Leica dropped this body and styling why not just add a FF chip? - it is a beautiful camera and ticks the box for a Leica M with EVF - perhaps better than the Q with its fixed focal length 'limitation'. I rebought into M earlier this year with the M11 - only because of the 60MP - compared to the SL2 and my Fuji GFX system it is smaller , lighter doesnt want for megapixels and because I am now middle aged my eye sight is actually improving ( short sighted all my life) and the rangefinder focusing isn't a stopper. I bought the new EVF and don't use it - but I see no reason why it couldn't be housed in an M body. For me the choice of camera systems boils down to what i am happy to carry these days- my interest in large bodies and big lenses is zero. Whatever the Leica and Panasonic are working on - I hope that they consider size ( smaller the better) ahead of just IBIS ( who cares ) and fast autofocus ( whatever that means) in real world use - if I wanted to shoot birds, sports or long distance or video -there are better options from other manufacturers and always will be. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 23, 2022 Share #98 Posted August 23, 2022 2 hours ago, jaapv said: That is true. Artillery too. But those were not Messsucher cameras - but an integrated Entfernungsmesser with a separate ocular. The M3 had the first integrated rangefinder-viewfinder. Hence Messsucher: Sucher means viewfinder, so "Measuring Viewfinder". The English "Rangefinder" is a mistranslation, as it lacks the viewfinder aspect present in German. The iiig did have framelines, but still a separate viewfinder and distance meter. [...] I don't speak a word of German but you sound like playing with words here. As explained by Macfilos, « the IIIf and IIIg, as with all predecessors from the Leica II (Model D) in 1932, had built-in rangefinders and viewfinders so they could also be described as having a Messsucher » (link). Even the German part of this forum refers to « Messsucher » about those superb cameras (link). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 23, 2022 Share #99 Posted August 23, 2022 A built-in rangefinder is not a Messsucher. They have two oculars, one for the rangefinder, one for the viewfinder A Messsucher camera the first of which is the Leica M3, has the rangefinder built into the viewfinder, thus one ocular. So a camera with a rangefinder built into the camera is not a rangefinder/viewfinder camera like the Leica M. I can assure you that the engineers at Leica do speak German and that the don’t play with words but with technology. Your Macfilos quote simply has it wrong. At the Photokina where Leica introduced the M3 the CEO of Zeiss even came up to Ernst Leitz and congratulated him with the words: You”be won. As for your German forum quote, that refers to the cleaning the rangefinder part of the camera and is used to differentiate it from the Sucher which is the OVF. German is a very precise language. AnywaY, this is an idiotic discussion which has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. A camera without an optical viewfinder/rangefinder will never be called an M camera so will not have the need for a limiting M mount. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted August 23, 2022 Share #100 Posted August 23, 2022 I find it so tedious that any discussion about what camera Leica could produce in future ends up in a discussion about words and their meanings. Let's keep to what a camera could do and what it could look like, and not say it can't happen because the words don't match. 1 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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