1/f rule by resolution

[M11 for me]

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vor 5 Minuten schrieb SrMi:

additional benefits

What do you think of? 

[Sergius]

What happens if a 18 or 24 MPix camera is upsized to 60 MPix via software ? We’ll see the same blur ?

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[SrMi]

4 minutes ago, M11 for me said:

What do you think of? 

There may be things that I am not aware of, but these benefits come to mind: better max DR, lower base ISO, electronic shutter, and longer metering (up to 60 min).

[SrMi]

8 minutes ago, Sergius said:

What happens if a 18 or 24 MPix camera is upsized to 60 MPix via software ? We’ll see the same blur ?

There are many ways to upsize. AFAIK, a simplistic approach would increase the blur visible at 100%, regardless of whether there would be a blur at 60MP.
More sophisticated upsizing algorithms use AI to reconstruct detail and sharpen the image (Adobe's Enhance, Topaz Gigapixel AI). I assume the blur would not increase with those approaches, but those techniques are prone to random artifacts. I expect a 60MP image, sharpened appropriately, to have better detail still.

[M11 for me]

SrMi wrote in post #43: There may be things that I am not aware of, but these benefits come to mind: better max DR, lower base ISO, electronic shutter, and longer metering (up to 60 min).

Thank you @SrMi of course. I see what you meant. Thx

Edited August 11, 2022 by M11 for me

[FlashGordonPhotography]

20 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

I think we've likely seen the same thing. As I said, the "same or worse."  Point being, there is no advantage to shooting S or M to reduce any effect of hand shake. 

That’s because resolution is irrelevant when it comes to hand shake. Only the enlargement amount makes a difference. Shots from the M11 will look the same (shake) when viewed at the same size even if you change the resolution.

But I’m more likely to make larger prints or crop from my 60MP files than I am from the smaller ones so I will need better technique because of the increased enlargement size. The larger the enlargement of a file the more that hand shake will become visible.

What’s happening is some look at their files at 1:1 and assume the 60MP files show more shake than the lower ones, when in fact it’s because they’re looking at a “bigger” (surface area) output.

Regardless I expect at least one more “the M11 shows more shake than the M10” post in the next week… *sigh*

Gordon

[hdmesa]

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@SrMi A 60mp sensor may show less aliasing than a lower res sensor (provided both have no AA filter and similar toppings). Similarly, the 36/18mp DNGs from the M11 show more aliasing versus the M11 60mp DNGs. Jim Kasson helped me test this over on DPR, and I posted the results there.

I don’t think downsizing reduces aliasing, at least not the way Leica is doing it in the M11.

Edited August 11, 2022 by hdmesa

[Tailwagger]

13 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Regardless I expect at least one more “the M11 shows more shake than the M10” post in the next week… *sigh*

Ah well... just consider it preparation for dealing with all the inevitable wailing and moaning when the M12 arrives with another few dozen extra MPx and still no IBIS.  

[SrMi]

11 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

@SrMi A 60mp sensor may show less aliasing than a lower res sensor (provided both have no AA filter and similar toppings). Similarly, the 36/18mp DNGs from the M11 show more aliasing versus the M11 60mp DNGs. Jim Kasson helped me test this over on DPR, and I posted the results there.

I don’t think downsizing reduces aliasing, at least not the way Leica is doing it in the M11.

I agree that downsizing by itself does not reduce aliasing.
I meant that a 60MP image downsized to 24MP should have less aliasing than an image from a 24MP sensor without an AA filter (which is the case for digital M cameras). 

 

[hdmesa]

Just now, SrMi said:

I agree that downsizing by itself does not reduce aliasing.
I meant that a 60MP image downsized to 24MP should have less aliasing than an image from a 24MP sensor without an AA filter (which is the case for digital M cameras). 

 

Gotcha. That’s hard to test since any lower res sensor versus the M11 at 60mp would have different sensor toppings that would skew the results. It still might be interesting test/compare, but I don’t own a low res camera at the moment.

[Chaemono]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb lct:

A 60mp Monochrom would lack IBIS the same way as the M11 does i suspect. If you have steady hands, you should be able to shoot at 1/2f or 1/3f the same way as this oldie do. 

It’s purely a biased perception but as ISO is bumped up from base ISO with the Monochroms, perceived gradation between shades of grey does not suffer, noiseless shadow detail can be pulled up at high ISO. Leica M11, Z7 are bought for their incredible base ISO and even if color fidelity does not suffer as ISO is increased, there’s always on the back of one’s mind, tones would be even more incredible at base ISO. It’s mainly psychological. 

[lct]

43 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

It’s purely a biased perception but as ISO is bumped up from base ISO with the Monochroms, perceived gradation between shades of grey does not suffer, noiseless shadow detail can be pulled up at high ISO. Leica M11, Z7 are bought for their incredible base ISO and even if color fidelity does not suffer as ISO is increased, there’s always on the back of one’s mind, tones would be even more incredible at base ISO. It’s mainly psychological. 

Camera shake will still be there and should me more visible in a camera reaching new heaths in term of resolution but it is totally psychological .

[Chaemono]

vor 21 Minuten schrieb lct:

Camera shake will still be there and should me more visible in a camera reaching new heaths in term of resolution but it is totally psychological .

Maybe I should have made it clearer but implied in the argument that one can bump up the ISO from base ISO with the Monochroms with little regret that one can do so with the shutter speed in parallel at a given aperture to keep exposure correct and to avoid camera shake. There’s always more regret with a color camera, even if with very little practical consequences, still psychologically, I find. 

[hdmesa]

14 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Maybe I should have made it clearer but implied in the argument that one can bump up the ISO from base ISO with the Monochroms with little regret that one can do so with the shutter speed in parallel at a given aperture to keep exposure correct and to avoid camera shake. There’s always more regret with a color camera, even if with very little practical consequences, still psychologically, I find. 

At higher ISO, starting at about ISO 800, the M11 falls far enough behind the M10M to be significant – provided you're comparing color M11 images to the M10M images. The M10M holds about a stop higher DR over the M11 from ISO 800 all the way up to max. And the higher you go with ISO and the lower the light, the worse the color noise gets on the M11. The "noise" on the M10M just looks like film grain, and it doesn't start looking objectionable and "digital" until close to max. Also read noise, expressed as ugly color noise, starts to come into play on the M11 as you pass ISO 6400 and approach ISO 10K. All of this is assuming no edits to the DNGs. The more you manipulate the DNGs, the more the difference widens.

If you want to narrow the differences between the M10M and the M11 at high ISOs, you need to compare b&w images from both plus use some sort of AI-based NR on the M11.

Edited August 13, 2022 by hdmesa

[Chaemono]

B&W Images from both is a fairer comparison IMO. 

Hopefully, I’ll eventually get to compare M10-M with M11-M, sometime by the end of next year is my guess. 

[LBJ2]

On 8/11/2022 at 7:03 PM, hdmesa said:

@SrMi A 60mp sensor may show less aliasing than a lower res sensor (provided both have no AA filter and similar toppings). Similarly, the 36/18mp DNGs from the M11 show more aliasing versus the M11 60mp DNGs. Jim Kasson helped me test this over on DPR, and I posted the results there.

I don’t think downsizing reduces aliasing, at least not the way Leica is doing it in the M11.

Is this the thread? https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66253840

If, so where are the results showing more aliasing in the 36/18MP files vs 60MP file? 

Edited August 13, 2022 by LBJ2

[Chaemono]

Am 12.8.2022 um 01:03 schrieb hdmesa:

@SrMi A 60mp sensor may show less aliasing than a lower res sensor (provided both have no AA filter and similar toppings). Similarly, the 36/18mp DNGs from the M11 show more aliasing versus the M11 60mp DNGs. Jim Kasson helped me test this over on DPR, and I posted the results there.

I don’t think downsizing reduces aliasing, at least not the way Leica is doing it in the M11.

Yes, where are the results showing what you claim about aliasing?

[LBJ2]

3 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

Is this the thread? https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66253840

If, so where are the results showing more aliasing in the 36/18MP files vs 60MP file? 

@HDMESA

I think I found it. Tough thread to wade through.  Thanks for doing the work and posting, BTW. What should I be looking for to determine more or less aliasing with these charts? 

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66262608

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66264533

Edited August 13, 2022 by LBJ2

[Chaemono]

vor einer Stunde schrieb LBJ2:

@HDMESA

I think I found it. Tough thread to wade through.  Thanks for doing the work and posting, BTW. What should I be looking for to determine more or less aliasing with these charts? 

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66262608

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66264533

I can’t see any difference in aliasing between 18/36/60MP. I got new glasses today, too. Love ‘em.

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[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, LBJ2 said:

@HDMESA

I think I found it. Tough thread to wade through.  Thanks for doing the work and posting, BTW. What should I be looking for to determine more or less aliasing with these charts? 

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66262608

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66264533

Look at the rainbow effect/pattern in the center of the chart – not sure exactly what to call it. A perfectly non-aliasing shot would only show the black and white pattern with no artifacts.

 

17 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

I can’t see any difference in aliasing between 18/36/60MP. I got new glasses today, too. Love ‘em.

Did you click on the image then click to see the full res image? Need to see it at 100%, and you can see the larger aliasing patterns at the center of the lower res chart shots.

Edited August 13, 2022 by hdmesa