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Summicron vs Voigtlander Considerations


petereprice

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On 7/29/2022 at 5:12 PM, petereprice said:

When I first purchased my Leica M10-R, I chose to get Voigtlander lenses first, because they seemed to review well, were affordable options, and I wanted time to evaluate which focal range I leaned more towards (35-50mm), and it just provided a much easier way into Leica.

Cut to today, I'm now starting to look at getting Leica lenses, and so I started testing Summicron (Non-APO) lenses, against my Voigtlander lenses, so that I can start thinking about which lenses to upgrade to.  
I currently have a Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f1.5 II, Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f1.2, and Voigtlander Ultron 35mm f2.
I rented the latest Leica 35mm f2 Asph v2 Summicron and the Leica 50mm f2 v5 Summicron lenses.  From an ergonomic, and build perspective, I understood right away, the appeal the lenses bring.  The focus action is smooth and quick, the lenses are built like tanks, and they just feel well balanced on the camera bodies.  It definitely feels like a magical marriage between lens and body.  And they are fun to use.

But when I started to do side by side image comparisons, that's when I started thinking.  I was expecting a little more of a difference, but from what I could tell, the Voigtlander lenses I currently own, which are their more modern lineup, seemed pretty on par (and in some cases exceeded) with the Leica lenses.  So it seems the margin in image quality between the latest Voigtlander lenses and the latest Summicron (non-APO) lenses seem to be quite small.  Making me wonder, that in order to start leaning into Leica lenses and start gaining a more meaningful value approach, perhaps you have to look at the more high-end Leica lenses, like the APO and Summilux lines.

I'd like to purchase at least one Leica lens, and I thought the Summicron would be a perfect blend of size, weight, and image quality performance, but when I compare lets say the 50mm f2 Summicron currently priced at $2895 and the Voigtlander 50mm Nokton f1.5 II lens at $899, it's hard to justify the spend, when they perform very similarly in sharpness, color rendition, and build. Perhaps I would be having a different conversation if I was shooting with an older M body like the M10 or M10-P but I'm having a hard time seeing meaningful advantages to the summicron beyond ergonomics.  But is that worth a $2000 delta?

Am I off here in thinking that the Summicrons are not what they were back in the days, unless you go with the latest APO versions, which are currently out of my price range?  Or perhaps looking at the Summilux which are a lot more expensive new and slightly more expensive used?

Would love to hear what people think currently when comparing the current Leica lenses vs Voigtlander's current lineup.  If I'm interested in upgrading to Leica, do I need to be looking at these high-end lenses, and which ones, if I'm interested in the 50mm and 35mm focal ranges?  It feels like the Voigtlander and Leica margin is closing very quickly, and the only way to make a difference is to pay the big bucks at which point, maybe I should stick with my Voigtlanders until I can afford the more high end APO or Summilux lenses?

I think you're spot on here to be honest. I did a detailed side by side test of a few 35mm lenses when I was looking for one before, and found that the Voigtländer 35mm f/2 Ultron was better than the Summicron in terms of image. Sure, the Summicron may be smoother etc, but I actually found it too smooth for my liking. My 35mm experience is here if you're interested: 

As @wda mentioned, definitely trust your own tests and experience, and if you're happy with the Voigtländer, then stick with it. Don't forget that a lot of the price which Leica commands isn't necessarily to do with image quality which can be noticeable without pixel peeping, but more to do with their brand prestige, their aftersales service, and the fact they still handmake things in Germany rather than a cheap knockoff factory in China. Of course there are always going to be purists who will say Leica body needs Leica glass, but as a working photographer I focus on what gets me my results. I have even had shots which I used the TTA 28mm f/5.6 accepted into Getty's collection of photography, and sold shots which I used the 7A 35mm f/1.4 - so don't be so focused on the branding of your gear, but just make sure whatever you choose is right for you.

From what I have read from your own summary of your findings, I'd definitely say stick with the Voigtländer. No one actually needs a Leica APO LOL - and even if you think you may need something like that, take a look at Voigtländer's Apo-Lanthar lenses.

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I agree with your observations. But also let's acknowledge the "Leica glass itch" that must be scratched 🙂 So... the best Leica lens for scratching is the Summarit 50mm f/2.4 in my opinion.

I got mine (new old stock) for $1K which is quite reasonable. Optically this lens is as perfect as it gets: razor sharp wide open, contrasty and immune to flare, so no need for a hood which is important in the context of what I am about to say.

The killer feature of the Summarit is its dimensions: absolutely tiny, and comes with the awesome metal push-on lens cap. Perfect for walking around outside where f/2.4 speed is not a problem. There are no equivalents, not from Voigtlander nor others.

The Summarit is my everyday 50mm lens, used in 80% of the situations. But for low light photography you can use the Nokton. Having both lenses has the following benefits:

  • That's a more versatile setup, both for low light and for walking around. At f/2.8 and smaller the Summarit is a better lens than the Cron because it's smaller. Small size rules. The Nokton will give you f/1.4 when you need it.
  • It will be cheaper than a single Cron.
  • You will scratch your Leica glass itch. :)

 

Edited by VanDooglz
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On 7/29/2022 at 10:12 AM, petereprice said:

When I first purchased my Leica M10-R, I chose to get Voigtlander lenses first, because they seemed to review well, were affordable options, and I wanted time to evaluate which focal range I leaned more towards (35-50mm), and it just provided a much easier way into Leica.

Cut to today, I'm now starting to look at getting Leica lenses, and so I started testing Summicron (Non-APO) lenses, against my Voigtlander lenses, so that I can start thinking about which lenses to upgrade to.  
I currently have a Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f1.5 II, Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f1.2, and Voigtlander Ultron 35mm f2.
I rented the latest Leica 35mm f2 Asph v2 Summicron and the Leica 50mm f2 v5 Summicron lenses.  From an ergonomic, and build perspective, I understood right away, the appeal the lenses bring.  The focus action is smooth and quick, the lenses are built like tanks, and they just feel well balanced on the camera bodies.  It definitely feels like a magical marriage between lens and body.  And they are fun to use.

But when I started to do side by side image comparisons, that's when I started thinking.  I was expecting a little more of a difference, but from what I could tell, the Voigtlander lenses I currently own, which are their more modern lineup, seemed pretty on par (and in some cases exceeded) with the Leica lenses.  So it seems the margin in image quality between the latest Voigtlander lenses and the latest Summicron (non-APO) lenses seem to be quite small.  Making me wonder, that in order to start leaning into Leica lenses and start gaining a more meaningful value approach, perhaps you have to look at the more high-end Leica lenses, like the APO and Summilux lines.

I'd like to purchase at least one Leica lens, and I thought the Summicron would be a perfect blend of size, weight, and image quality performance, but when I compare lets say the 50mm f2 Summicron currently priced at $2895 and the Voigtlander 50mm Nokton f1.5 II lens at $899, it's hard to justify the spend, when they perform very similarly in sharpness, color rendition, and build. Perhaps I would be having a different conversation if I was shooting with an older M body like the M10 or M10-P but I'm having a hard time seeing meaningful advantages to the summicron beyond ergonomics.  But is that worth a $2000 delta?

Am I off here in thinking that the Summicrons are not what they were back in the days, unless you go with the latest APO versions, which are currently out of my price range?  Or perhaps looking at the Summilux which are a lot more expensive new and slightly more expensive used?

Would love to hear what people think currently when comparing the current Leica lenses vs Voigtlander's current lineup.  If I'm interested in upgrading to Leica, do I need to be looking at these high-end lenses, and which ones, if I'm interested in the 50mm and 35mm focal ranges?  It feels like the Voigtlander and Leica margin is closing very quickly, and the only way to make a difference is to pay the big bucks at which point, maybe I should stick with my Voigtlanders until I can afford the more high end APO or Summilux lenses?

It’s actually commendable that Leica has kept the 50 Cron design for so long. Think of the current v5 it as a classic re-issue that didn’t have to be reissued. It still has excellent sharpness to the far outer corners (something not all Lux M lenses have unless stopped down further). Its subdued color, lower contrast (at small detail frequencies), and unique but attractive retro flare patterns make it a fun lens to use. And it is sublime on a monochrome M at f/2. When using it on the M10-R, don’t be shy about experimenting with pushing saturation/vibrance to ungodly heights in post — you won’t see unattractive color shifts, and it doesn’t easily look over-processed.

Most all current Voigtlander lenses have Zeiss-like microcontrast and color, some equal to the Classic (ZF/ZE, etc.), some equal to Milvus, and some approaching Otus. It’s my crackpot theory that Voigtlander has improved on the Zeiss T* coating and uses it off-label. 

If you want a standout Leica Lux, the 50 is what I recommend. The CV 50 1.2 has a lot of bokeh color fringing wide open when close up, but the 50 Lux at f/1.4 near MFD is just pure sweet cream.

I wouldn’t touch a Leica Noct 0.95 (IMO, don’t crucify me everyone) when the CV 50 f/1 is so good and more compact. But the CV 50 f1 is not a replacement for the 50 Lux for me, I use it more to get a 75mm f/1.5 look at 50mm, which saves me from the extra length of most 75 lenses.

Like others have said, the Leica/Zeiss/Voigtlander choices are best approached on a lens-by-lens basis. Some prefer to commit one way or the other, but I think you will miss many gems if you do.

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I like summicrons for several reasons, I have five of them in my M lens collection; 28mm safari, 35mm asph v1, 50mm safari, 75mm apo & 90mm apo safari.  

I also like some CV lenses, my favourites are 12mm ltm, 28mm ltm colour skopar f3.5, new 40mm Heliar f2.8 and 50mm heliar classic f1.5.

I personally don’t see CV lenses as an alternative to Leica, I see some CV lenses as complementary to Leica where they have something to offer that a Leica lens does not or does not exist in the range and this is where my interest in the CV range lies.

As someone said earlier, I also think CV made a mistake in not planning their designs to be more harmonious. Taken as a whole, the current  CV collection is a bit of a design mess with some eccentric random haptics, shapes and sizes but that’s a subjectively mild criticism of CV when they should really be congratulated for producing some genuinely interesting lenses, such as the 50mm Heliar Classic (one of their best lenses in some situations, imo), f1.5, 50mm f1 Nokton, 35mm f1.4 sc Nokton, 35mm f1.2 Nokton, 35/ 50mm apo-lanthars and several others that are no longer current.

Good on CV for broadening our creative options!
 

 

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14 hours ago, VanDooglz said:

But also let's acknowledge the "Leica glass itch" that must be scratched 🙂 So... the best Leica lens for scratching is the Summarit 50mm f/2.4 in my opinion.

Haha, yes I will grant you that there is that itch. I went with the Summarit 35mm f/2.5 myself. Although I am thinking of maybe letting it go for something else... so many choices!

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On 7/31/2022 at 5:27 AM, Jon Warwick said:

both the Leica 50 APO and new Leica 35mm APO lens are shorter than the Voigtlander equivalents

Incorrect. The Voigtlander 50 APO is the exact same length as the Leica 50 APO. They are literally the same length down to the millimeter. The diameter of the Voigtlander 50 is larger, maybe that's what you are thinking. But see the data below-- identical length. 

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4 minutes ago, eyeheartny said:

The Voigtlander 50 APO is the exact same length as the Leica 50 APO.

Different findings here:

M 50/2 apo
Length: 47mm
Diameter: 53mm
Filters: 39mm

CV 50/2 apo
Length: 53mm
Diameter: 55.6mm
Filters: 49mm

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The Apo-Lanthar 50 is more similar in size to the 50 Lux (Length 52.5mm, Diameter 53.5mm, Filter E46).

I've been shooting with the Leica 50 Apo for 6 years now. When I got it, I compared the Lux and the Apo extensively and the Lux was just slightly too big for me to be completely comfortable for a daily carry (I mainly shoot street). It was a bit of a surprise since prior to that I owned some truly humongous lenses like the Nikkor 14-24 or the Zeiss 135 Apo-Sonnar and handheld one of the 400/2.8 bazookas for entire days with no problems. But on the rangefinder, the Leica Apo just hits such an incredibly sweet spot of optics/size (at the expense of cost) for me that you have to give it a try and decide for yourself - and you might decide it's nothing and not much of a compromise, which is fine.

In fact, there is still no 50 currently available at this level of optics/size a decade on. The Voigtlander 50/3.5 was very close, but like many Voigtlander lenses, the bizarre vintage cosplay of a barrel design ruined an otherwise incredible modern lens for me - it is still a good lens, but just not for me - and that is a problem with Voigtlander in general imo, like a couple of posters mentioned, sometimes great lenses, sometimes truly regrettable own goals, zero consistency in terms of a system of lenses. But on the bright side, recent releases of the awesome 28/2 and 35/2 in similar barrels suggest an acknowledgement of this issue, if they do this for all of their lenses (and assign the odd and adorable artefacts to special editions) then I like this new Voigtlander.

Now could someone do a 40/2.8 Apo-Elmarit that is sharp, small and relatively inexpensive, please and thank you :) (yes Voigtlander has a 40/2.8, but the entire front bit rotates with the focus ring.. another of the "so close yet so far".)

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48 minutes ago, Panda2 said:

The Apo-Lanthar 50 is more similar in size to the 50 Lux (Length 52.5mm, Diameter 53.5mm, Filter E46).

I've been shooting with the Leica 50 Apo for 6 years now. When I got it, I compared the Lux and the Apo extensively and the Lux was just slightly too big for me to be completely comfortable for a daily carry (I mainly shoot street). It was a bit of a surprise since prior to that I owned some truly humongous lenses like the Nikkor 14-24 or the Zeiss 135 Apo-Sonnar and handheld one of the 400/2.8 bazookas for entire days with no problems. But on the rangefinder, the Leica Apo just hits such an incredibly sweet spot of optics/size (at the expense of cost) for me that you have to give it a try and decide for yourself - and you might decide it's nothing and not much of a compromise, which is fine.

In fact, there is still no 50 currently available at this level of optics/size a decade on. The Voigtlander 50/3.5 was very close, but like many Voigtlander lenses, the bizarre vintage cosplay of a barrel design ruined an otherwise incredible modern lens for me - it is still a good lens, but just not for me - and that is a problem with Voigtlander in general imo, like a couple of posters mentioned, sometimes great lenses, sometimes truly regrettable own goals, zero consistency in terms of a system of lenses. But on the bright side, recent releases of the awesome 28/2 and 35/2 in similar barrels suggest an acknowledgement of this issue, if they do this for all of their lenses (and assign the odd and adorable artefacts to special editions) then I like this new Voigtlander.

Now could someone do a 40/2.8 Apo-Elmarit that is sharp, small and relatively inexpensive, please and thank you :) (yes Voigtlander has a 40/2.8, but the entire front bit rotates with the focus ring.. another of the "so close yet so far".)

"vintage cosplay" 😂

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Thanks, everyone for this extremely helpful and fascinating discussion.  I didn't expect so much praise for the Voigtlander lenses and other third-party options available.  I agree with the general sentiment, that the competition for price performance in the M mount is becoming much more fierce and that the options are there and viable.  It's good to know we can turn to more options at a much more digestible price point.

So in my quest to look at Leica options, I had to first settle on what focal length fits me the best, and that has to be the 50mm focal range.  Knowing that the Summicron didn't offer me a better option than what I already have with the VC 50mm f1.5 II and the VC 50mm f1.2, I gravitated towards the 50mm Summilux.  Now, what does the Summilux give me?  
Well..first it consolidates a small size lens with a fast aperture into one lens.  Arguably the VC 50mm f1.5 II offers that as well, however, the optical design of the Summilux is slightly better in that it provides a little more sharpness in close-up subjects, in addition to mid and infinity focus distances.  Offering a little more consistency across all focus distances.  I also notice that the lens resolves extremely well on my M10-R's 40mp sensor, as well as some impressionable micro-contrast in the image.  
On the haptic and ergonomics side of things, I notice that the focus action is much smoother than the VC 50mm f1.5 II, which tended to feel a little stiffer than I'd like, and I'm welcoming the focus tab experience, as it helps with muscle memory when focusing.  The overall design of the Summilux is very appealing to look at on an M body and as with the class of this lens, comes the durability and class in its fit and finish.

I could easily accomplish what I want with the VC 50mm f1.5 or the VC 50mm f1.2 as they are amazing lenses, but I wanted to try and get used to one of the Leica lenses, and make the purchase worthwhile, so I found a very gently used 50mm Summilux, at B&H, for a nice price, and have decided to sell my Voigtlander 50mm lenses to help fund the newly purchased 50 Summilux.  I will miss the VC lenses because they offer some great character and quality, however, I don't want to load my cabinet with too many lens options yet, as I want to get to know one lens first and focus, before delving into other lens options.

However, I will be keeping the Voigtlander 35mm f2 Ultron for my 35mm focal length needs.  This lens is amazing, and all indications are that this lens optically is better than the Leica 35mm Summicron ASPH, and although I would love to delve into a 35mm Summilux ASPH FLE, I need to stick with one Leica lens at a time before I make that major investment, not to mention if I even need to make that investment at all.  The VC 35mm f2 Ultron, is small, light, and converts my Leica M10-R into a high-resolution Fujifilm X100V!  I have the version 1 because I found the version 2 to have a bit of a sticky focus ring, and the version 1 focus "stick" didn't bug me too much.

So for now, I think I'm going with that setup and if for any reason I change my mind, and have second thoughts about the 50mm Summilux, I can always go back to the VC lenses and have cash in my pocket.  But so far in my initial shots with the 50 lux, I've been impressed, and it did feel more commensurate to the price ratio.

Thanks all...this was a really fun discussion to read and follow!  Look forward to more chats around this topic.

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11 hours ago, petereprice said:

However, I will be keeping the Voigtlander 35mm f2 Ultron for my 35mm focal length needs.  This lens is amazing, and all indications are that this lens optically is better than the Leica 35mm Summicron ASPH [...]

Not sure i would go that far. The Summicron has less vignetting and a smoother OoF rendition but the Ultron is a great little lens indeed especially on crop bodies like digital CL where vignetting is not an issue. I prefer the Ultron's smaller size on the CL too, less so on M cameras, but it is a subjective matter obviously. The Ultron's 0.58m MFD is also an advantage on both FF and crop cameras. I'm just comparing the Ultron 35/2 asph v1 to the Sumicron 35/2 asph v1 here as i have no experience with the v2 of them. BTW the Ultron 35/2 asph v1 shows a bit of barrel distortion as opposed to the pincushion distortion of the Summicron 35/2 asph v1. Both distortion levels are moderate but i prefer applying the Summicron 35/2 pre-asph profile to the Ultron for this reason.

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Am 31.7.2022 um 03:05 schrieb genji:

When I purchased a Leica M10-P at the beginning of 2019, I was confident that the Voigtlander and Zeiss ZM lenses which I had been adapting—with varying degrees of success—for use on Sony bodies would be all I’d need. I had no intention of buying any Leica lenses. Today I’ve switched to a mostly Leica lineup of APO and Lux lenses from 28mm to 90mm for precisely the reason Simone_DF gives. The size and handling inconsistencies of Voigtlander lenses, together with the capricious choice of barrel designs  (Classic, Vintage, and Modern) were a constant irritation that for me at least outweighed their optical excellence. I still have 28/2 & 35/2 v2 Ultrons (too small) and 35/2 & 50/2 APO-Lanthars (too big) and a Distagon ZM 35/1.4 (also too big) but these will no doubt eventually be sold. I’m holding on to some lovely 20 year old Voigtlander LTM lenses—black paint finish with scalloped focusing rings—that are a perfect match for a black paint MP. A key advantage of Leica lenses is, for me, that their ergonomic consistency leads to a more harmonious and pleasurable shooting experience. If the size and handling disparities of Voigtlander lenses are not an issue then, as Simone_DF pointed out, there is really no reason to pay a significant premium for Leica lenses.

I get your point. It's the reason I would never consider the Summarit-M f/2.5 line - why would they change the font on the lens in the middle of the lineup? It's a luxury problem, of course. But I would also not buy a Porsche if they would use Comic Sans on the rev-meter (or if it wouldn't have a rev-meter).

Voigtländer massively screwed up with their various lines, making it less then a joy to complete a set-collection. Nevertheless - I'm not a collector so I'm using the 28/2 Ultron II (asph.) and it's far better than any wide-angle Leica has managed to produce (including 28/2, 21/3.4 - although it was close to 24/3.8, but that was not perfectly centered).

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I agree with the consensus in that there's little need to buy Leica M mount lenses over current Voigtlander unless you have specific need for their handling and rendering. My collection has lenses from Leica, Zeiss and Voigtlander, including the Summicron 50 v5 that you rented. The rendering and handling of the Summicron feels just right to me, and it was the lens that turned me on to the 50mm focal length, preferring wider lenses before buying the Cron.

I also have the Elmarit 28 ASPH and Summarit 75, and as much as I like the rendering of the Elmarit, I prefer the handling of the Zeiss Biogon 28 which I also have. In fact, I generally prefer the handling of Zeiss ZM lenses to Leica or Voigtlander. They all have a well grooved focus ring with bump that indicates where you are in the throw. Too bad the Zeiss ZM build quality is spotty, I have three ZM lenses with varying degrees of dryness and barrel wobble.

On the other hand, I just love the Biogon 21/2.8 and Distagon 35/1.4. The Sonnar 50/1.5 is lovely optically, but has a minor barrel wobble which I'm concerned may increase over time.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Depends on you. I don’t compare those things. I compare the overall image character at each aperture. 

the summicron and the Nokton don’t give you the same image. The summicron has part vintage feel wide open (soft and gooey and gorgeous), a bit less of that by f4 and by f8 is a modern contrasty razor corner to corner (in terms of practical every day use) ….  whereas the Nokton gives me a modern high contrast rendering all the way through. 

also the aperture ring on the f1.5 is a nightmare to operate. That lens is fiddly as all hell. 

I find the summicron is worth the money as it’s like having 3 lenses in one. It lets me be more expressive. With the Nokton I can’t. 

I also got rid of the Apo-Lanthar in favor of the summicron because that’s worse. It’s basically perfect from f2 all the way through. It’s quite boring and doesn’t fit what I want to see in the frame. 

seems to me you’re happy with your lenses so I don’t see the point in getting some other lens just because it says Leica on it. 

i would just keep my lenses. All that matters are the pictures. 

Having said that I totally get why you want a Leica lens. And well; my Leica lens is a Summicron. I mean. It’s a legendary lens. It totally lives up to the hype, I like the integrated hood, it’s buttery smooth, and the image. Well I talked about that already. 

So if you’re going to have a Leica lens. Let it be your most used focal length and let it be a summicron. 

i would keep the 50f1.2 Nokton, get rid of the f1.5 and change that for the summicron (if 50 is your go-to)

It seems however you’re into sharper and sharper and sharper. If that’s your thing then just get the APO-Lanthar and save yourself all that money. It doesn’t get any sharper than that. 

Edited by Cthulhu
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