Summicron vs Voigtlander Considerations

[petereprice]

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When I first purchased my Leica M10-R, I chose to get Voigtlander lenses first, because they seemed to review well, were affordable options, and I wanted time to evaluate which focal range I leaned more towards (35-50mm), and it just provided a much easier way into Leica.

Cut to today, I'm now starting to look at getting Leica lenses, and so I started testing Summicron (Non-APO) lenses, against my Voigtlander lenses, so that I can start thinking about which lenses to upgrade to.  
I currently have a Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f1.5 II, Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f1.2, and Voigtlander Ultron 35mm f2.
I rented the latest Leica 35mm f2 Asph v2 Summicron and the Leica 50mm f2 v5 Summicron lenses.  From an ergonomic, and build perspective, I understood right away, the appeal the lenses bring.  The focus action is smooth and quick, the lenses are built like tanks, and they just feel well balanced on the camera bodies.  It definitely feels like a magical marriage between lens and body.  And they are fun to use.

But when I started to do side by side image comparisons, that's when I started thinking.  I was expecting a little more of a difference, but from what I could tell, the Voigtlander lenses I currently own, which are their more modern lineup, seemed pretty on par (and in some cases exceeded) with the Leica lenses.  So it seems the margin in image quality between the latest Voigtlander lenses and the latest Summicron (non-APO) lenses seem to be quite small.  Making me wonder, that in order to start leaning into Leica lenses and start gaining a more meaningful value approach, perhaps you have to look at the more high-end Leica lenses, like the APO and Summilux lines.

I'd like to purchase at least one Leica lens, and I thought the Summicron would be a perfect blend of size, weight, and image quality performance, but when I compare lets say the 50mm f2 Summicron currently priced at $2895 and the Voigtlander 50mm Nokton f1.5 II lens at $899, it's hard to justify the spend, when they perform very similarly in sharpness, color rendition, and build. Perhaps I would be having a different conversation if I was shooting with an older M body like the M10 or M10-P but I'm having a hard time seeing meaningful advantages to the summicron beyond ergonomics.  But is that worth a $2000 delta?

Am I off here in thinking that the Summicrons are not what they were back in the days, unless you go with the latest APO versions, which are currently out of my price range?  Or perhaps looking at the Summilux which are a lot more expensive new and slightly more expensive used?

Would love to hear what people think currently when comparing the current Leica lenses vs Voigtlander's current lineup.  If I'm interested in upgrading to Leica, do I need to be looking at these high-end lenses, and which ones, if I'm interested in the 50mm and 35mm focal ranges?  It feels like the Voigtlander and Leica margin is closing very quickly, and the only way to make a difference is to pay the big bucks at which point, maybe I should stick with my Voigtlanders until I can afford the more high end APO or Summilux lenses?

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[wda]

Peter, I think you have answered your question, based on your experiences with the lenses you have been evaluating. Does it matter what others use? Use whatever you are comfortable with, provided you are happy with the results. 

I have two versions of the 50 Summicron, one bought in 1965 and a more modern one bought about 15 years ago. I had intended selling the old one, but refrained. It has an endearing character,  subtly different to later versions. I never felt the need to buy non-Leica lenses, so cannot help you in that regard.

[Jeff S]

Forget the name and buy what you prefer.  There are many fine lens/gear options these days, all capable in the right hands. You were wise to test for yourself and not just take a survey.  Do the same with other lenses if you must.  Or just shoot (and print?) and be happy.

Jeff

[Simone_DF]

48 minutes ago, petereprice said:

It feels like the Voigtlander and Leica margin is closing very quickly, and the only way to make a difference is to pay the big bucks at which point, maybe I should stick with my Voigtlanders until I can afford the more high end APO or Summilux lenses?

Many people have sold their Summilux in favor of the Voigtlander 50mm 1.2, and the Voigtlander 50mm APO is as good as the Leica version.

Basically today the only reason to choose a Leica is if you prefer the handling or size difference.

That said, I own the M Lux and it's an excellent lens. Would I swap it for the Voigtlander? No. But if I was buying one today, I'd pick the Voiglander.

[elmars]

The current Voigtländer lenses are very good, in practical use as good as Leica lenses. But I don‘t like their type of lens hoods (I don‘t line them on Leica lenses too). But that is a matter of taste. And one has to be aware that the color rendering of Voigtländer is a bit colder. 

[madNbad]

How about a slightly different direction? I'm a film user so many of the enhancements on the new lenses aren't important but in addition to the Voigtlanders I own there is one Leica lens, the 28 2.8 Elmarit-M ASPH. The one I currently own is the V1 but the V2 has some improvements without increasing size too much. It's a great lens to have in you bag and need just a little more and the price won't break the bank. I owned a 35 Summicron ASPH for a long time but am very happy with the latest version of the 35 Ultron ASPH. Good luck with your search.

[TomB_tx]

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I've used Summicrons (35 & 50) since 1968-9, but since retiring have tried a number of VC & Zeiss lenses. I could be happy with any of them as my only lenses. That said, a Leica owner should have at least one Summicron, or he'll continue wanting one. Don't expect amazing differences, but they are very fine lenses.

[lct]

Depends on what you prefer in lenses. You may prefer the OoF rendition and handling of the Summicron 35/2 asph, for instance, or the smaller size and shorter MFD of the Ultron 35/2 asph, etc. It is a matter of tastes and budget but you can go wrong with neither lens anyway.

[spydrxx]

I've been down the Leica road since 1967 and owned lots of Leica M & R lenses for film bodies. When digital came along, and I retired, I realized that other lens manufacturers had offerings at a fraction of (new and used) Leica prices, and whose performance and finishing was either on par or almost on par with Leica. These days I own only 4 Leica lenses (all older ones), and a number of Voigtlander and Zeiss lenses, and am quite happy with all of them. The Leica appeal, to me, has been fine optics and construction, and others have caught up in some specific lenses. So, yes, get a Leica lens which meets your specific requirements and budget, and use it along with what you currently have. But don't expect WOW differences....they no longer exist...either on film or digital. But you will own a Leica lens.

[Siriusone59]

I'm about in the same position as you regarding lens choices.  I have a Q with its permanent Summilux 28mm which is in my opinion a fantastic lens, very sharp and renders images with an almost 3-D quality. Then I acquired a 10r and 50mm Summicron.  The cron is a good lens but the summilux seems sharper, as it should.  Tried Voigtlander for filling in the gaps with the Ultron 35, 75 Nokton and later a 50mm heliar.  Very pleased with all the Voigtlanders but if I were to replace them, I'd go for the Summilux, of course I may have to win a lottery first or find an exceptional deal.  My main carry around lens has turned out to be the Ultron 35, the 50 cron doesn't get used much but I'll keep it because...Leica.  

[LarsHP]

Trust your own experience. I think you are spot on.

The current 50mm Summicron-M (non-Apo) is actually a quite old design, more that twenty years (maybe forty years!), if I am not mistaken. In the analog days, the 50mm Summicron was a true benchmark lens, particularly regarding corner to corner sharpness and on top of that it was (and still is) tiny compared to SLR lenses.

However, times have changed, not only regarding going from film to digital, but lens design is now helped enormously by computer software. My understanding is that the clear cut optical performance difference between Leica (and Zeiss) versus "the rest of the bunch" is gone, at least as long as we consider quality lens manufacturers like Sony, Nikon, Canon, Fuji, Voigtländer etc. One lens will have these features, drawbacks and advantages, the other has different characteristics. Your own experience seems to say the same regarding the Leica versus Voigtländer lenses.

Regarding the 50mm Summilux-M Asph, it has the advantage of the floating lens element over the Nokton f/1.2 (and presumably the f/1.5 II), which will show at short focus distances. Is it worth the price difference? Only the one who buy will know from their own viewpoint. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by LarsHP

[lct]

There are not only performances in lenses. I have both Summicron 50/2 apo and 50/2 v5 for instance and prefer the latter for its more gentle rendition on portraits.

[TomB_tx]

22 minutes ago, LarsHP said:

 

Regarding the 50mm Summilux-M Asph, it has the advantage of the floating lens element over the Nokton f/1.2 (and presumably the f/1.5 II), which will show at short focus distances. Is it worth the price difference? Only the one who buy will know from their own viewpoint. 

The floating elements are exactly why I've avoided such lenses - I don't like the mechanical complexity. More to go wrong with little difference in performance in areas that I care about.

[chuhsi1]

This is also where I landed. I prefer Leica summicron 28mm and 50mm haptics, but instead use two Voigtlander lenses because I prefer the optics and saving thousands of dollars. 

[genji]

On 7/30/2022 at 3:07 AM, Simone_DF said:

Basically today the only reason to choose a Leica is if you prefer the handling or size difference.

When I purchased a Leica M10-P at the beginning of 2019, I was confident that the Voigtlander and Zeiss ZM lenses which I had been adapting—with varying degrees of success—for use on Sony bodies would be all I’d need. I had no intention of buying any Leica lenses. Today I’ve switched to a mostly Leica lineup of APO and Lux lenses from 28mm to 90mm for precisely the reason Simone_DF gives. The size and handling inconsistencies of Voigtlander lenses, together with the capricious choice of barrel designs  (Classic, Vintage, and Modern) were a constant irritation that for me at least outweighed their optical excellence. I still have 28/2 & 35/2 v2 Ultrons (too small) and 35/2 & 50/2 APO-Lanthars (too big) and a Distagon ZM 35/1.4 (also too big) but these will no doubt eventually be sold. I’m holding on to some lovely 20 year old Voigtlander LTM lenses—black paint finish with scalloped focusing rings—that are a perfect match for a black paint MP. A key advantage of Leica lenses is, for me, that their ergonomic consistency leads to a more harmonious and pleasurable shooting experience. If the size and handling disparities of Voigtlander lenses are not an issue then, as Simone_DF pointed out, there is really no reason to pay a significant premium for Leica lenses.

[rramesh]

Many years back, I sold my 35 Cron to buy a 28 Cron.

Recently I was in the market to acquire a 35 Cron. The performance delta between the Cron and the Voigtlander Ultron 35 II was so marginal (In fact I found the Ultron to be more compact and better), that it was a no brainer to buy the Voigtlander at a third of the price.

Now I am looking at getting a Voigtlander 50 f/1, at a fraction of the price of a Noctilux.

[RexGig0]

The current-production, pre-APO 50mm Summicrons are, indeed, what they were, in the “old” days, if 1979 is old enough to be “old days.” Some shooters prefer the way Walter Mandler lenses capture light, and the Summicron-M 50mm, with the 1979 optical formula, may be the last of his designs that is still in production. (A number of shooters prefer the even earlier version of the Summicron, known as the “Rigid.”)

Whether any Cosina-made Voigtlander VM, or any Cosina-made Zeiss ZM, will be “better” than today’s Leica Summicron-M 50mm will depend upon what the shooter wants to create. Cosina know(s) how to produce budget-level lenses, and know(s) how to produce superb lenses. Until recently, my several M-mount 50mm lenses were all manufactured by Leica, and all were purchased pre-owned, saving quite a bit of money. My recent 50mm departure is a Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 VM, chosen for several reasons, including getting more light into my older cameras, rather than “upgrading” cameras. It will not displace my Summilux-M 50mm ASPH from its place as my favorite* 50mm lens.

At 35mm, I prefer a Cosina-made Zeiss Distagon ZM. At 21mm, I have a superb, but “slow” Zeiss f/4,5 ZM, and a Voigtlander f/1.4 Nokton. Before I started using Leica M system, I was using Zeiss and Voigtlander SLR lenses, having been willing to use third-party lenses, for a number of years.

*I chose to buy my Summilux-M 50mm ASPH lens, before I knew which M camera I would be acquiring. This lens is why I added the Leica M system.

Edited July 31, 2022 by RexGig0

[Knipsknecht]

Over the last years Cosina Voigtlander upped its M-mount lineup to become a tough challenge to Leica. And Leica itself focuses more and more on the extremely expensive  high end lenses. So, if I would have to buy the kind of focal ranges I own again, I think I would opt for Voigtlander most of the time. That doesn’t mean I am not satisfied with my Leica glas - that’s not the case. 
But when I consider the prices I’ve paid - even for used Leica lenses -, I can’t justify the acquisition any longer from an economical point of view. So, today I think it all boils down to the question: Do I want a “real” Leica lens at all costs, or do I want to buy a M-mount lens for the focal range I prefer (or just want)?

The only advantage that Leica offers is 6-bit coding and services. The rest is a question of taste(s), available money and brand loyalty - well, that’s what I personally think😉.

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[Jon Warwick]

32 minutes ago, Knipsknecht said:

Over the last years Cosina Voigtlander upped its M-mount lineup to become a tough challenge to Leica. And Leica itself focuses more and more on the extremely expensive  high end lenses. So, if I would have to buy the kind of focal ranges I own again, I think I would opt for Voigtlander most of the time. That doesn’t mean I am not satisfied with my Leica glas - that’s not the case. 
But when I consider the prices I’ve paid - even for used Leica lenses -, I can’t justify the acquisition any longer from an economical point of view. So, today I think it all boils down to the question: Do I want a “real” Leica lens at all costs, or do I want to buy a M-mount lens for the focal range I prefer (or just want)?

The only advantage that Leica offers is 6-bit coding and services. The rest is a question of taste(s), available money and brand loyalty - well, that’s what I personally think😉.

I can’t disagree with most of that, in my case comparing my M 50 APO and the Voigtlander APO Lanthar that I now own. Pretty remarkable now Voigtlander produce that image quality + build quality - for a much lower price. Where there is a further difference, for these APOs at least, is the size ….both the Leica 50 APO and new Leica 35mm APO lens are shorter than the Voigtlander equivalents, especially when a Voigtlander lens shade is mounted. In my case that extra size was not something I care about, but I guess others might like less viewfinder blockage.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Jon Warwick

[lct]

Can only be good to have more choice. Last century we had only a couple Rokkor and Hexanon lenses available in M mount. Now Cosina fills that niche as a member of the "M alliance" so to speak. This way Leica can go on selling bodies to people who cannot afford Leica lenses, or prefer Zeiss or CV lenses for any other reason. Good for Pixii too by the way.

Edited July 31, 2022 by lct