M11 Monochrom

[colint544]

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Rumour sites predicting that the in-house name of the upcoming M11 Monochrom is Rene. Nothing wrong with wondering what sort of files we'll see from a mono version of the M11..

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[Herr Barnack]

Quote

...the M11 is the highest ever ISO M rangerfinder camera Leica has ever produced, with a top limit of 50,000 ISO. 

I would expect the M11 Monochrom to deliver up to a least another stop in light gathering, topping out at 64,000 ISO...

What's this now??

Apparently Sebastian (the author) needs to review some specs on the M10 vs. the M10 Monochrom in terms of maximum ISO.

Also:  A full +1EV increase of ISO over 50,000 would not be 64,000. 

@Sabastian, please see https://shuttermuse.com/what-is-iso-in-photography/

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[FrozenInTime]

2 hours ago, colint544 said:

Rumour sites predicting that the in-house name of the upcoming M11 Monochrom is Rene. Nothing wrong with wondering what sort of files we'll see from a mono version of the M11..

I don't feel a great need for 60 Megapixels, over the current 40, but providing bomb-proof dynamic range would be useful.

How about replacing the bayer RGGB filter with two clear cells and two steps of ND cells ; the demosaiced image would drop resolution at the extremes of exposure, but gains dynamic range, while still yielding full mid-tone resolution.

Or is feeling that the whole point of a M monochrom camera is to provide completely un-manipulated pixels ? 

[colint544]

I still use my ten-year-old M9M, and can't see a reason to change it. In many ways it can surpass film, especially in terms of resolution. The 40MP M10M looks like more camera than anyone could ever really need. You have to wonder about a 60MP M11M, and what that might offer to persuade anyone to trade up.

[Herr Barnack]

I'm still shooting with my M-P 240 but want to eventually upgrade to the yet to be announced M11-P. 

I have found that my M-P 240 is still capable of making good images and even large size exhibit quality prints - but ISO is its downfall, having a maximum ISO of 6400.  For printing, ISO 800 is usable; sometimes ISO 1600 can be gotten away with, depending on the lighting, the subject and post processing. 

The M11's sensor and its capabilities are compelling.

[colint544]

Yes, the idea of setting ISO to automatic, and forgetting about it is appealing. Owners of the M10M already pretty much already have that facility. Leica are adept at making a product we all want, and I'm curious as to how they will persuade those M10M owners to trade up.

[Jeff S]

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12 minutes ago, colint544 said:

I still use my ten-year-old M9M, and can't see a reason to change it. In many ways it can surpass film, especially in terms of resolution. The 40MP M10M looks like more camera than anyone could ever really need. You have to wonder about a 60MP M11M, and what that might offer to persuade anyone to trade up.

I own the M9M and M10M, thinking that I’d sell the former after buying the latter.  But I can’t seem to part with the original MM. Zero interest in an M11 version.  My pics wouldn’t improve and the M10M offers all the handling and viewing qualities I need.  But it’s good that Leica continues to provide options for others, including new customers.

Jeff

[overexposed]

2 hours ago, colint544 said:

I still use my ten-year-old M9M, and can't see a reason to change it. In many ways it can surpass film, especially in terms of resolution. The 40MP M10M looks like more camera than anyone could ever really need. You have to wonder about a 60MP M11M, and what that might offer to persuade anyone to trade up.

i feel exactly that way! i am not interested in an M11M a tiny bit.

the M10M will stay with me for a very very long time

[Jon Warwick]

8 hours ago, FrozenInTime said:

I don't feel a great need for 60 Megapixels, over the current 40, but providing bomb-proof dynamic range would be useful.

How about replacing the bayer RGGB filter with two clear cells and two steps of ND cells ; the demosaiced image would drop resolution at the extremes of exposure, but gains dynamic range, while still yielding full mid-tone resolution.

Or is feeling that the whole point of a M monochrom camera is to provide completely un-manipulated pixels ? 

For me, yes, the key thing i like about  the Monochrome is much less manipulation of pixels, I easily notice the difference (ie, less processed & less "digital" looking files) compared to a color filter array camera including my GFX100S. So personally I'd be wary of any changes in that regard.

In terms of resolution, I print off my M10M to 60" wide - I'd take more megapixels, sure, but the M10M is remarkable even at that massive print size, producing fine detail that's perhaps closer to my 5x4 than 6x7 images.

[pgh]

I'm waffling between an M10R and an M10M - I have an M10, and I still shoot a good bit of color, but these days it's less and less. The added effective resolution of the M10M is more than I'd ever need. Who regularly prints over 50-60" - and in bw...is concerned about hyperreal sharpness? I also want to share batteries and prefer the feel of the 10 bodies over the 11 - not better just different. I'll welcome the M11M if it pushes prices down some - since I'm not pulling a trigger all that soon. I care about the difference between 24-40 mp - it's the primary reason I'm going to get another M10 body eventually - but after that, it's diminishing returns for my particular uses. 

[Olaf_ZG]

I would love to see a m11m!

Wont buy it though, but it will bring a m10m within reach 😎

[Jeff S]

13 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Wont buy it though, but it will bring a m10m within reach 😎

Or make it more desirable. The original MM has been appreciating lately despite newer versions. The M246, not so much. Market reactions vary, and of course much depends on new vs used, timing/sourcing, etc.

Jeff

[NigelG]

On 7/19/2022 at 6:25 PM, Herr Barnack said:

I'm still shooting with my M-P 240 but want to eventually upgrade to the yet to be announced M11-P. 

I have found that my M-P 240 is still capable of making good images and even large size exhibit quality prints - but ISO is its downfall, having a maximum ISO of 6400.  For printing, ISO 800 is usable; sometimes ISO 1600 can be gotten away with, depending on the lighting, the subject and post processing. 

The M11's sensor and its capabilities are compelling.

I’m also still shooting M240-P, M60 (x2) and M9M.
I don’t need high ISO or massive prints and so have never bumped up against the supposed “limits” of these sensors…

I do wonder sometimes if the vocal “dissatisfied” forum owners actually ever have…

[Herr Barnack]

With DNG files from my "small" 24 mp sensor in my M-P 240, I can make exhibit quality prints at 24x36 inches.  I have never printed larger than that, but I suspect that these files could go larger and still have the printed image quality I need to have. 

The camera lenses, ISO used, shutter speed used, post processing and the skill/experience/ability of the print maker all come into play in print making.  All either enhance or detract from the image quality of the final print.

In my experience, 24 mp is enough for most print sizes.  The Q2's 47.3 mp sensor and the M10 Monochrom and M10R's 40.89 mp sensor are big enough for most printmaking.  If you want to make Godzilla size 60x90 inch prints, then you might actually need the M11 for its huge 60.3 mp pixel count.

I'm not sure what Leica is going to do for the M12 sensor in terms of pixel count.  Going larger than 60.3 mp when most users don't print to begin with, or at most make small to medium size prints seems unnecessary.  A lot of Leica M shooters already consider 60.3 mp to be overkill.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[ramarren]

On 7/19/2022 at 12:31 PM, colint544 said:

Rumour sites predicting that the in-house name of the upcoming M11 Monochrom is Rene. Nothing wrong with wondering what sort of files we'll see from a mono version of the M11..

Given the success Leica has had with the Monochrom line of cameras (M9M, M246, M10M and Q), I think it is inevitable that an M11 Monochrom will surface. What exactly it will be is anyone's guess until it is introduced. Down to fundamentals: The M10-M has a bespoke sensor (that is, a dedicated monochrome only sensor that was designed for the M10-M only). Will an M11-M be the same in that regard, or will it be more like earlier M Monochrom models in having an adapted RGB sensor? And what will the characteristics of such a sensor be, should it be a bespoke sensor? or even if it shouldn't...?

I personally have no creative vision of such an sensor to offer, or what problems that affect my photography it can solve. I'm at a loss to find any fault with the present M10-M. I certainly don't need more pixel resolution, I doubt I can imagine what to do with greater than ISO 100,000 (or even 50,000) capability, I see nothing in the controls or image processing of M10-M files that I can improve upon in any substantive way. 

So ... Wonder what sort of files such a camera can offer? And what would make it desireable to me? I just don't know. I'm happy with what I have, and there are a lot of other things I can prioritize ahead of buying yet another $9,000 camera, given what I have already. We're talking a pretty rarified strata to achieve.

I bought my M10-M just a few months ago. Give me five or six years with it and maybe I'll be ready for a change, although what that change might constitute, and why, I cannot at present imagine. Again, I just don't know.

G

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, ramarren said:

The M10-M has a bespoke sensor (that is, a dedicated monochrome only sensor that was designed for the M10-M only).

But same sensor as in the M10-R, without the color array.  Leica has said that development was started on both simultaneously, but the R version took longer to sort color issues.  Both were derived from S3 sensor architecture (similar to the M240 and S007), presumably to spread costs.

Jeff

[ramarren]

10 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

But same sensor as in the M10-R, without the color array.  Leica has said that development was started on both simultaneously, but the R version took longer to sort color issues.  Both were derived from S3 sensor architecture (similar to the M240 and S007), presumably to spread costs.

Jeff

I'd like to see a reference to where that was stated, Jeff. I've read three different articles on the M10-M that state the M10-M sensor is bespoke and not shared with any of the other models. One of them was referenced from a Leica source, but I can't put my fingers on the three articles at the moment. 

Note that I don't believe you, but it would be nice to know what is and what isn't good data. At least in a recent comparison of the M10-R, M10-M and M11, there seem to be notable differences between the performance of the M10-R and M10-M sensors, independent of the color array. 

Of course, it doesn't really matter much since the M10-M is a fantastic performer, and it doesn't really matter photographically what the sensor might or might not be related to.

G

[Jeff S]

27 minutes ago, ramarren said:

I'd like to see a reference to where that was stated, Jeff. I've read three different articles on the M10-M that state the M10-M sensor is bespoke and not shared with any of the other models. One of them was referenced from a Leica source, but I can't put my fingers on the three articles at the moment. 

Note that I don't believe you, but it would be nice to know what is and what isn't good data. At least in a recent comparison of the M10-R, M10-M and M11, there seem to be notable differences between the performance of the M10-R and M10-M sensors, independent of the color array. 

Of course, it doesn't really matter much since the M10-M is a fantastic performer, and it doesn't really matter photographically what the sensor might or might not be related to.

G

Discussed in various threads, including links I’ve made elsewhere to various articles and an interview with a couple of Leica execs. Haven’t time to search for the interview, but folks at Red Dot Forum (Leica Miami) have repeated the fact that the difference between the R and Monochrom sensors is the color array..

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2021/02/bw-iso-showdown-2021-leica-q2-monochrom-vs-m10-monochrom-vs-q2-vs-m10-r/
 

The link to the S3 was also discussed frequently here, starting way back with Nicci’s comments in this thread (posts 22, 38, 73)…

It’s true that Leica marketed something to the effect that the M10 Monochrom sensor was developed from the ground up, but they left out the part that the R was simultaneously started and added a color array.  (And derived from the S3 sensor wafer.)  Both things are true.

Edit… M10 R and M10M have same pixel pitch as S3, and 40.89 MP

Jeff

Edited August 1, 2022 by Jeff S

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[ramarren]

Interesting, thank you. 

As said, it's mostly irrelevant since whatever the sensor is, it's terrific. I usually don't get involved in this level of discussion at all, but since I just read about the bespoke nature of the M10-M sensor a day or two ago, it tickled my curiosity. 

G

[Jeff S]

5 minutes ago, ramarren said:

Interesting, thank you. 

As said, it's mostly irrelevant since whatever the sensor is, it's terrific. I usually don't get involved in this level of discussion at all, but since I just read about the bespoke nature of the M10-M sensor a day or two ago, it tickled my curiosity. 

G

Here’s an interview that explains simultaneous development..

Jeff