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A most desirable firmware WISH

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Menu lens selection would be good of course - maybe implemented as: when turning the camera on and when changing lens, if the lens attached isn't coded, then automatically a pop up menu asks you what lens to code it like; this should of course be switcheable on-off via menu in case one wouldn't need it.

 

Just my .02, let's see if and when Leica will change its position on the issue. Until then, dreaming is free...

 

Vieri

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... I would like a menu for correcting a Zeiss (21/4.5) and two VC lenses (25/4 and 35/2.5) that I like and use...

We cannot ask for CZ or CV menus to be honest.

What Leica could and should do IMO is offering menus for Elmarits 21/2.8 & 24/2.8 and Summicron 35/2 by example. Then you could use them for your lenses and everybody would be happy no?

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Leica's answer:

"Technically, this would be feasible, but we think that a manual selection would bring the risk of forgetting to change the settings when changing a lens. This is particulary dangerous, because the settings also influence DNG files."

 

 

 

This is a very weak argument. If Leica were so concerned with the user forgetting to change settings when changing a lens, why then after over 50 years of producing cameras have they never come up with a warning if the lens cap was still on the lens?

 

In reality, Leica wants the user to use Leica lenses instead of the competition and they want the user to send lenses in for coding so they can make some money. Actually there is nothing wrong with this and I wish they would just admit it rather than providing responses such as the above.

 

To think that they have any interest in producing a menu option that would include non Leica lenses is rather naive. I predict that at some point they WILL have the menu option but most likely after they have decided that they have made enough money with the coding conversions that they have done.

 

Sorry if all this sounds rather sarcastic. It is not meant to be, it is just matter of fact. They are a company whose bottom line is their first concern (as it should be). They have lost a lot of money in recent years due to their unwillingness and inability to move to digital in a timely manner. Now that they have a handle on it, they need to make some of that money back and also to get some of the R&D that they invested in recent items such as the DMR and the M8.

 

I DO wish they had the menu option and I actually made mention of it to a Leica rep when the M8 was first announced. But I am not surprised it didn't show up and I actually do not blame Leica for not adding it at that point.

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The point you are all missing is that Leica merely said that uncoded lenses could be used on the M8 but said nothing about resulting image quality. Any inference that such lenses would provide satisfactory IQ is your own.

 

That's wrong again. If you'd like, I can PDF you the official press kit I got for the M8 in August of 2006. Leica really did think that most M and LTM lenses could perform satisfactorily on the M8. (Limited of course, by each lens' own optical strengths and weaknesses). They had not planned to use the coding system to correct for cyan drift with IR filters because IR filters weren't part of the initial plan either. They found a problem, they fixed it with external filters and correcting for those filters on wide lenses (without special operations in post) requires coding.

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...perhaps Christian Erhardt should be persuaded not to swan around Germany on a "Jolly" in a Porsche and instead concentrate on improving the chaotic level of customer service provided by Leica NJ. He may be a nice guy to have a beer with but IMHO, he seems basically useless. David Bell, Leica UK, are you reading this?

 

Boy, Mark you really do seem to take pleasure in insulting people. You don't have the first clue of what Christian has and has not done on behalf of Leica customers and I think that insulting him here is in poor taste and counter to the forum rules against personal attacks.

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I would add to Sean's comment above, that I also think the IR filters and coding are necessary for BW work. I would like a menu for correcting a Zeiss (21/4.5) and two VC lenses (25/4 and 35/2.5) that I like and use.

Walt

 

Hi Walt,

 

They indeed can have value for BW work as well depending on what kinds of files one wants to start with. But, though I very much respect you and your work, I don't agree at all that Leica should provide free support for other makers' lenses. Leica providing support for their own lenses (which allows users of other lenses to adopt codings with generally excellent results) is reasonable.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Just my .02, let's see if and when Leica will change its position on the issue.

Vieri

 

Leica has not, necessarily, fully articulated its position on this yet. They've given their supposed reasons for not providing the lens selection in-menu, so far, but their position on the matter, overall, isn't yet public knowledge.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Guest Walt

Tummy, LCT and Sean-

 

That's not at all what I meant, though I see now that the statement as I wrote it was unclear. Put in a correction table for a Leica 21, 24 and 35, etc.--close enough, usually. I have no expectation of Leica providing codes for other's lenses. Leica never sold this camera saying that only Leica-brand M-mount lenses would work properly but right now that is essentially the case. This is easy to remedy and the remedy needn't bother anyone who doesn't want to use it. Tummy, there are all kinds of things in the menu right now that I never look at, but you probably like and use.

 

Walt

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Tummy, LCT and Sean-

 

That's not at all what I meant, though I see now that the statement as I wrote it was unclear. Put in a correction table for a Leica 21, 24 and 35, etc.--close enough, usually. I have no expectation of Leica providing codes for other's lenses.

 

Walt

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

Best,

 

Sean

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Leica has not, necessarily, fully articulated its position on this yet. They've given their supposed reasons for not providing the lens selection in-menu, so far, but their position on the matter, overall, isn't yet public knowledge....

 

You are absolutely correct in what you report but there have been some clues from Leica insiders that this is a serious commercial interest matter. It is not just a case of others making lenses to put on the M8; Leica would like to see its lenses promoted as the "best in the world" and being used on other manufacturer's cameras. A premium product creaming approach in consultant speak. This requires a great deal of negotiation and mutual agreement which currently is not in place. Leica are not going to give up their current commercial advantage with the "6-Bit" code without getting something in return.

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This requires a great deal of negotiation and mutual agreement which currently is not in place. Leica are not going to give up their current commercial advantage with the "6-Bit" code without getting something in return.

 

If Nikon or Canon were planning M lens lines I could see this being an issue. Leica lenses for the huge Canon and Nikon DSLR market would be an attractive proposition although I can't see Leica's 6-bit coding being much of a bargaining chip in exchange.

 

The only players right now in the M space are CV and Zeiss and they don't really have anything to offer Leica in the way of a platform for their 6-bit lenses so what would there be to negotiate? Unless there is a CV/Zeiss digital RF in the near future that might license 6-bit for the mount. But that seems a remote possibility.

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I think its important to distinguish two different things here - firstly, the ability to identify a lens from the EXIF data in the DNG, and secondly the correction of vignetting in firmware. Those two things are not necessarily the same.

 

What I'd suggest to Leica is that they allow a lens selection menu, but not one that selects from actual Leica lenses, or that does any firmware correction - in fact, you could allow the user to input whatever lens name they wanted. What this would allow is for correction in post processing to be done far more easily. Right now, to use CornerFix, you have to remember which lens was used for what shot. However, if you could program names of lenses, even "Fred's first lens", or whatever, CornerFix could then associate that name with a lens profile, and do corrections automatically. You'd still have to run CornerFix on all your images, but it would just be one batch run on all images with CornerFix selecting a lens profile based on the user name in the DNG file.

 

This preserves Leica's commercial interests in that running any kind of post processing is going to be limited to relatively few enthusiasts and/or pros, so they will still sell coded Leica glass to the vast majority of M8 purchasers, rather than those sales being taken by Zeiss or CV.....

 

Bear in mind, the real money for Leica is probably not in the M8, as expensive as it may be, but in selling lenses.

 

Sandy

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Guest tummydoc

Exactly what I wrote yesterday.

 

Wouldn't a more realistic approach, one that would fill our needs whilst still being just inconvenient enough (as if accessing a menu at each lens change wasn't already thus) not to compromise the advantage of buying coded Leica lenses, be more likely to be accepted by Leica? That would be simply the possibility to set focal length and maximum aperture in a menu, to be included in EXIF but not trigger any type of firmware correction. That would give the user an easy way to parcel DNG files from each lens into separate folders after downloading. From there one could batch-process them in whatever editing programme with whatever pre-made custom profiles/actions we desire, eg Corner-fix.

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Exactly what I wrote yesterday.

 

Ahh, no, not really - focal length and max aperture is not really the same as a lens id.....

 

Sandy

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Guest tummydoc

True, my idea is more simplistic than inputing "Fred's First Lens", but perhaps a bit more realistically achievable. Just out of curiosity, how you propose one go about entering aphanumeric information in the M8? Honestly, a lens ID from 0-99 (or 999 for some of us

) would do just fine, wouldn't it.

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Boy, Mark you really do seem to take pleasure in insulting people. You don't have the first clue of what Christian has and has not done on behalf of Leica customers and I think that insulting him here is in poor taste and counter to the forum rules against personal attacks.

 

No, I don't take pleasure in it but to deny that Christian is somehow absolved of all responsibility for hopeless service provided to countless US Leica users just because he is "marketing" is ludicrous. Leica US is, what, a few tens of employees? If anyone has issues with lousy service and incompetent administration, they should complain to Christian, as the most visible Leica face in the US, and ask him to sort things out for them.

 

No such danger with Leica UK who are equally useless and work-shy.

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True, my idea is more simplistic than inputing "Fred's First Lens", but perhaps a bit more realistically achievable. Just out of curiosity, how you propose one go about entering aphanumeric information in the M8? Honestly, a lens ID from 0-99 (or 999 for some of us ) would do just fine, wouldn't it.

 

Well, the M8 has enough buttons to enter alpha text from a menu via "cursor" control, although it would be a pain to do. But the way I'd code it would be to have the user input the names of as many lenses as he (or she) had once, then just display a menu of those previously entered lenses for selection when required. Much like your 0-99 idea, but in practice, with just numbers, users would forget which was which.......I'd think you would have to have alpha descriptions

 

Sandy

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That's wrong again. If you'd like, I can PDF you the official press kit I got for the M8 in August of 2006. Leica really did think that most M and LTM lenses could perform satisfactorily on the M8. (Limited of course, by each lens' own optical strengths and weaknesses). They had not planned to use the coding system to correct for cyan drift with IR filters because IR filters weren't part of the initial plan either. They found a problem, they fixed it with external filters and correcting for those filters on wide lenses (without special operations in post) requires coding.

 

Yes, and I'm quite sure that press kit would have included the rider that (I paraphrase) "Specifications are subject to change". So maybe their statement was made in good faith at the time, only to be undermined later by the IR issue rearing its head. That meant IR filters, coding required for optimum quality and (sadly) issues for uncoded lenses.

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Guest guy_mancuso
No, I don't take pleasure in it but to deny that Christian is somehow absolved of all responsibility for hopeless service provided to countless US Leica users just because he is "marketing" is ludicrous. Leica US is, what, a few tens of employees? If anyone has issues with lousy service and incompetent administration, they should complain to Christian, as the most visible Leica face in the US, and ask him to sort things out for them.

 

No such danger with Leica UK who are equally useless and work-shy.

 

Mark i really have to ask where you are coming from. His role is not firmware period and not even the M8 system. Stefan Daniels is in charge and the go to guy on the M systems and a very nice lady i forget here name is in charge of the R systems. This is a business structure that many companies have and you should know that. You blaming someone not remotely related to this task. Christians job is marketing and also helping when he can with customer issue which BTW go through guys like me that ask for help to customers. If you even remotely knew how much is really going on honestly you would be taking your acquistions back in a heart beat. He is the last guy i would even ask about firmware stuff and menu options and i don't even talk to him on that level , it simply is NOT his role with the company . Your like asking a communications person to write engineering code, not going to happen. I said this before and i will repeat it , you want lens menu option than write Stephen Lee it is completely his call. this is NOT about resources or anything else but about how the company wants to go forward and that decision falls squarely on his head. Now that is his job

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Mark

 

I really don't think that insulting people who are not here to defend themselves is really a good way to get things done.

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