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usefeet

A most desirable firmware WISH

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usefeet, given your chosen nickname, I am surprised that you need this, since surely you use just one lens?

 

It's mostly true too!

 

But it also hints that I like to do things myself and the reason I bought a rangefinder, ..a user adjustable manual camera.

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"Never say never with the menu selection but patience is certainly a virtue here.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean"

 

This is what I am hoping for. If you keep on about it, you just might get it.

 

I can't help noticing how inventive we are to get around coding the lens, so perhaps this indicates that I am not the only one seeking this addition to the Menu.

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I can't help noticing how inventive we are to get around coding the lens, so perhaps this indicates that I am not the only one seeking this addition to the Menu.

 

No, indeed there are many people who are interested and there have been extensive debates, in several threads, about this issue.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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I see no good reason why Leica go on lacking respect for their customers who own non codable Leica lenses and are not liable for the IR story in any way.

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It clearly isn't a question of lack of respect, but rather a question of hearing what customers say, but having a different opinion. Leica is not obligated to fulfill any of our wishes, naturally. I am just glad that they listen at all, which is so different from, say, Canon, who continues to stick Direct-to-print buttons instead of Function or MLU buttons on more and more high-end cameras. I doubt there is anyone here who could have designed a better camera than the M8, so let's leave Leica to the decisions, shall we?

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It clearly isn't a question of lack of respect, but rather a question of hearing what customers say, but having a different opinion. Leica is not obligated to fulfill any of our wishes, naturally...

Not only a lack of respect for customers having paid little fortunes to get non codable lenses but also Leica fail to fulfill their commitment according to which 'Almost all Leica M lenses with a focal length of 21-90 mm manufactured from 1954 can also be used without 6 bit-coding'.

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And so they can, providing you don't want to take advantage of the imaging enhancements which coding gives you.

 

No, that's not true. In order to have somewhat accurate color from the M8, one must use IR-cut filters. 35 mm and wider lenses used with IR-cut filters will show cyan drift and the in-camera correction for that requires coding.

 

Without the IR-sensitivity problem, the coding would have provided optional advantages (which is exactly how Leica first presented it). With the IR-sensitivity problem, photographers who wish to maintain accurate color, in files made with the M8 and IR-cut filters, need coded lenses unless they plan to correct manually for cyan drift in post. Cornerfix often provides a better correction that the M8 firmware but it requires that one remember what lens was used for each exposure - that's a problem for many pros and others who need to prep hundreds or thousands of files from one shoot.

 

The IR-sensitivity problem took coding from being optional to being, essentially, necessary for most M8 photographers working in color.

 

I personally recommend that M8 photographers working in color use coded Leica lenses, when possible, or LTM lenses with LT-M8 adapters for hand-coding. Having other M-mount lenses milled is also an option for many. However one gets those codes, having them certainly creates a more efficient workflow than a lens menu.

 

*But* there are various times, situations, lenses (including those made by Leica) where a lens menu system could prove to be very useful for M8 photographers; especially those working in color.

 

I myself am using lenses that are coded (by various means) and would not often use the lens menu. But that doesn't mean that the feature will not be very useful for *other* photographers who also paid Leica for an M8.

 

We've covered this ground before folks.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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And so they can, providing you don't want to take advantage of the imaging enhancements which coding gives you.

 

As Sean has stated without the unintended and unanticipated IR sensitivity issue 6-bit coding would be a non-issue. It is really a serious IQ issue only for lenses wider then 50 which are the most used lenses. This menu would restore the camera to it's original stated functionality.

 

I have only one uncoded lens. I plan on sending it in but not until I can get a quick turn-around and assurance that focus calibration won't get trashed. I've sent 2 emails to Leica NJ trying to get an idea of turnaround but neither has been answered. As it looks like it's going to take a while for Leica to get service up to speed, the menu change would be appreciated.

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Since Leica does not have the capacity to service their own supported lenses they should not penalize customers for their problems. Of course if you don't actually take photographs with your equipment you can consign them to Leica service for unlimited amounts of time. But I paid for my equipment to use it and I use it to pay the bills so support from equipment vendors is greatly appreciated and highly prized.

 

This was discussed at length here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/21381-sign-petition-menu-selectable-lens-profiles.html

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The point you are all missing is that Leica merely said that uncoded lenses could be used on the M8 but said nothing about resulting image quality. Any inference that such lenses would provide satisfactory IQ is your own.

 

What they also said was that using a coded lens allows improvement to image quality and their very first response to the IR problem was that M8 photographers should use coded Leica lenses with Leica filters. And so it has turned out.

 

Given the options for self coding, there is little need for a menu. If you don't want to get the mount milled, there are better alternatives to using a Sharpie - I am currently experimenting with a two-pack epoxy ink which is widely used for silk screening control panels and which is much harder wearing.

 

[edited by admin]

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The point you are all missing is that Leica merely said that uncoded lenses could be used on the M8 but said nothing about resulting image quality. Any inference that such lenses would provide satisfactory IQ is your own.

 

That would be a first. Leica advising you that you could do something that would compromise the quality of results you get on a Leica product.

 

Oh you got cyan corners! Well we said you could use the lens, we never actually said the image quality would be good! On their worst day Leica has never even contemplated such a sleazy tactic. I believe they have acted in good faith and had hopes that as much of the full catalog of lenses could be used as is possible. Otherwise they could have saved a ton of development money and just come out with a new digital friendly mount. It would have made a full frame chip and wides with no in camera correction possible.

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Guest guy_mancuso

Mark

 

Christians function is NOT customer service and is in fact camera marketing. One can not be the jack of all trades . Who is in charge of customer service in NJ is Robert Fisk and company. In Germany it is a different set of folks. To be honest none of these folks that you are referrring too have anything to do with firmware and the decision to implement the menu code, the menu code comes from Steven Lee and Dr Kaufman that is how far up the food chain it is and reason i keep saying it's Leica's call, it is a top end issue. it is not a matter of resources either, this is a top executive management call.

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The point you are all missing is that Leica merely said that uncoded lenses could be used on the M8 but said nothing about resulting image quality. Any inference that such lenses would provide satisfactory IQ is your own....

This is not pleadable Mark IMHO. The duty of any brand is to provide satisfactory quality at the level of the price one pay for it. Again the IR issues haven't been caused by customers and it's the duty of Leica to do their best to solve them in good faith.

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Guest guy_mancuso

Which is directly related to what I just said where this issue is sitting

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Which is directly related to what I just said where this issue is sitting

Sitting in the bag of customers using 1954 to 1979 wides or something i guess. To take my own example: Summaron 35/2.8, Summilux 35/1.4, Summicron 40/2. BTW my Lux is from 1989.

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I undertstand the decision to do the menu is with Leica Camera AG, but if one of the reasons it's being asked for is the poor turnaround offered by Leica NJ, that's something which can be fixed. Christian Erhardt is the public face of Leica US and should take issues such as this on board and get them sorted, even if that involves stepping outside his job remit.

 

Leica UK's public face such as it is, goes by the name of Noddy (or is it Nobby?) which says it all, really.

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Guest guy_mancuso

Mark that simply is not his role and his job is dictated by the guy he reports too. All businesses have a food chain. Not saying he does not get involoved he does very much so but it is not public. i deal with Christian on many levels myself when it comes to customer service, he does it becuase he wants too to help. but i amsure he can only go so far before he is stepping on someone else's toes

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Guest Walt

I would add to Sean's comment above, that I also think the IR filters and coding are necessary for BW work. I would like a menu for correcting a Zeiss (21/4.5) and two VC lenses (25/4 and 35/2.5) that I like and use. These are three lenses for which Leica makes nothing comparable in terms of physical size and gray scale. I am not interested in spending my time with Sharpies, epoxy ink, screw-mount adapters or the removal, shipping and machining of lens mounts.

 

Shooting DNGS for BW conversion, I find the IR filters mandatory. Without the filters, the camera often provides an unfamiliar and unattractive BW tonal scale that is difficult to print and not entirely correctable. I also believe there are several other anomalies resulting from IR sensitivity, including highlight problems and, as in a recent post of the Chaplin figure, other undesirable effects. Invisible, non-imaging light should not become part of an image.

 

The Cyan drift produced by the filters then produces a problem in the BW conversion, for which the chromatic curve of the conversion is a critical element. I generally mimic a Tri-X-like chromatic response in the conversion with, from most to least, a blue, green, red balance. The cyan corners lighten the corners excessively and then often require burning in. Additionally, in incandescent light, with the poor color balance of the camera, the high IR component of the light often makes it impossible to reduce the red sufficiently to achieve the conversion I want.

 

Leica did not sell this camera as one having visible IR problems that produce visible image defects. They also did not, in my opinion, sell it as "usable with M lenses" with no regard for image quality. So I, and most others, have swallowed the requirement for the use of IR filters. We now find out that those filters introduce their own problem. Leica has an easily realized way to help customers deal with these unforseen problems with a lens menu, and they should just do that. I am not sympathetic to the idea that they have a "different opinion" on this. If people don't like the idea of the menu, they will have the opportunity to not use it.

 

Walt

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Guest tummydoc
I would like a menu for correcting a Zeiss (21/4.5) and two VC lenses (25/4 and 35/2.5) that I like and use.

 

Splendid! Let's start a list of all the lenses we want Leica to create profiles for in the hypothetical menu. Zeiss, CV...the Minolta Rokkors...Canon and Nikon screw-mounts....why not all the Russian/Ukrainian optics as well? I'm sure they can spare a few chaps from their firmware crew for a few months to buy and test all these lenses and write profiles. We don't need reliable AWB or and end to venetian-blinds as badly, do we?

 

Wouldn't a more realistic approach, one that would fill our needs whilst still being just inconvenient enough (as if accessing a menu at each lens change wasn't already thus) not to compromise the advantage of buying coded Leica lenses, be more likely to be accepted by Leica? That would be simply the possibility to set focal length and maximum aperture in a menu, to be included in EXIF but not trigger any type of firmware correction. That would give the user an easy way to parcel DNG files from each lens into separate folders after downloading. From there one could batch-process them in whatever editing programme with whatever pre-made custom profiles/actions we desire, eg Corner-fix.

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