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For those interested in dealer or sales outlet engravings and added plates. here is one that I have not seen. This practice seems more common in Europe and South America (Lutz) than in the US. On the base plate of model III.

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A quick internet search throws up a few other items (binoculars and cameras) with this address so it would appear that the location (now a listed building) was that of a photographic dealer at some point. There was a time when London contained innumerable small dealers even as recently as the 1980s, but all are gone now with just a few still surviving. Personally I think that such associations are only beneficial and add to the history of a camera (or lens). I have just bought an 1860s lens from India and whilst it has no engraving, research suggests that it was supplied by a delaer in Mussoorie in around 1865. Its history from then on can only have been fascinating but I doubt that we will ever be able to find out who used it or where.

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5 hours ago, alan mcfall said:

 

For those interested in dealer or sales outlet engravings and added plates. here is one that I have not seen. This practice seems more common in Europe and South America (Lutz) than in the US. On the base plate of model III.

Here are the details of the dealer :

 

Westminster Photographic Exchange

Company Name

Westminster Photographic Exchange Ltd1907 -

Westminster Photographic Exchange1903 - 1907

Company Address

119 Victoria St., London SW1903 -To after 1942. SW1 postal district from 1917

24 Charing Cross Rd., London WC21933 -To after 1942. Prior to this occupied by Adams & Co.

111 Oxford St., London Wc. 1914 -To after 1942. W1 postal district from 1917

*62 Piccadilly, London W1 1923 - 1935 Photographers listed here in the 1840s

81 Strand, London W11935 -

121 Cheapside, London

149 North St., Brighton1948 -

Established in late 1902 by A.J. Leather (ex Army & Navy Stores and City Sale & Exchange) and E. Evans.

References: 

BJA 1934, p. 537. Phot. Dealer Dec/1902, p. 302. PTB Jul/1948, p. 443.

*They were in that 62 Piccadilly location from 1923 to 1935

One of the most famous London dealers was Sinclair. I have two Sinclair engraved Leicas, a I Model A from 1929 and a II Model D from 1935. These are not two different addresses, as in 1929/30 the Charing Cross address became Whitehall. I have other Sinclair material to go with the II Model D including a case and instructions for use with the name and address. 

My favourite engraved Leica in my collection is this one (two photos) which was delivered on 25 April 1932 according to the Leica delivery register which I photographed when I was in Wetzlar recently. Pollock were a Dublin firm of opticians who sold cameras on the side and ordered through the UK Leitz outfit in Mortimer Street, London. I have a copy of one of the catalogues, which they used when ordering, which shows printed prewar prices and postwar prices (about double) written over them in pencil. However, I have no idea who did the engraving on cameras sold by Pollock. A local jeweller told me that back in 1932 there could have been up to 50 engravers working in the Grafton Street area, as a lot of jewellery was engraved at that time, particularly when given as presents. 

In 2019 I used this camera to take photos of 50 Grafton Street. Pollocks have long since gone, but I used a camera shop, which is now immediately across Grafton Street from that address, to have the roll of film developed.

William 

Edited by willeica
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Don't have any cameras with engravings, but several (non-leica) cameras with seller decals on the inside. It adds tremendous amount of story to the camera, and I love that - and it would have been cool to have original engravings like those shown above on my old Leicas.

However, I can't help but wonder, what my reaction would be if I purchased a new Leica MP from B&H  to which they have added a prominent permanent engraving of their logo on the outside of the camera?

I don't think I would be that excited in the moment, but perhaps I would have changed my mind 30+ years later?

Edited by nitroplait
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6 hours ago, nitroplait said:

Don't have any cameras with engravings, but several (non-leica) cameras with seller decals on the inside. It adds tremendous amount of story to the camera, and I love that - and it would have been cool to have original engravings like those shown above on my old Leicas.

However, I can't help but wonder, what my reaction would be if I purchased a new Leica MP from B&H  to which they have added a prominent permanent engraving of their logo on the outside of the camera?

I don't think I would be that excited in the moment, but perhaps I would have changed my mind 30+ years later?

Something modern engraved by B&H would not appeal at all. Time always helps. This one is 90 years old and rare and the dealer no longer exists. They do come up from time to time and the eagle eyed will have spotted another one which went to Pollock in the Leitz delivery register photo above.

I had seen the Pollock engraving in Laney’s book and immediately wanted one. Then one day my good friend Paul (pgk) contacted me and said that Peter Loy (who I also know personally) had one, so I contacted Peter and bought it immediately.
 

Another friend, Tony Hurst, who has a massive camera collection, has told me that if he collected Leicas this would be the one that he would want. 
 

In my own mind, this ranks as my favourite Leica and the only things in my collection that would rank ahead of it would be my father’s camera and my 19th Century Dublin made Grubb brass lenses, which Paul (pgk) also collects.

William 

Edited by willeica
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On 7/13/2022 at 3:54 PM, willeica said:

...I had seen the Pollock engraving in Laney’s book and immediately wanted one. Then one day my good friend Paul (pgk) contacted me and said that Peter Loy (who I also know personally) had one, so I contacted Peter and bought it immediately...

As it happens, William, I saw the 'Pollock' when it first appeared on Peter Loy's site. I'm delighted to read that it went to the ehome of someone who really cherishes it!

Apropos the camera illustrated in the OP; the same dealer currently has a '34 'Bright Chrome' III with 'The Westminster, 62 Piccadilly, W1' engravings. When I saw the camera Alan posted here I originally thought it to be the same one but, having looked again, they are clearly two different examples.

Philip.

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On 7/13/2022 at 4:54 PM, willeica said:

Something modern engraved by B&H would not appeal at all. Time always helps.

I agree.

However, the time when the engravings shown in this thread where done, the engravings were contemporary - and yet the customers at that time presumably didn't mind that their cameras were "defaced" with dealer information.

I suspect the customers at the time felt differently from what I would feel today if a dealer engraved my new camera with their logo/address.

The elaborate Pollock engraving must have come with a not insignificant additional cost for the dealer and I assume it was done because the customer would appreciate it, rather than the opposite.

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I remember a Leica II being sold on eBay with Ballin & Rabe plaque from Halle (Saale) with some peculiar address. I found the same plaque on another Leica. This eyesore address (the first of three) is no fake.

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Edited by Al Brown
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47 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

I remember a Leica II being sold on eBay with Ballin & Rabe plaque from Halle (Saale) with some peculiar address. I found the same plaque on another Leica. This eyesore address (the first of three) is no fake.

Clearly, not all engravings are equal.

On the subject of modern engravings, I wonder if  it would be more acceptable if Leica themselves were to engrave the supplier address? FWIW (as willeica will also know) in the early days of photography the supplier's details were often engraved on leneses and their badges placed on cameras too. Sometimes a lens was engraved by a retailer when it was re-sold and some dealers even applied their serial number as well as the maker's. A few years ago it business such as R G Lewis tested the lenses they sold so a lens supplied by them would have a reason to be engraved but thy were not. A test certificate was supplied instead. Also 'Linhof selected' lenses were marked as such so I can see both logic and viability costwise of marking up lenses at least. But in today's world this is one of the many details indicating quality which are potentially no longer relevant and the idea of engraving to indicate such 'quality'  has followed or more likely preceeded their demise.

I would imaging that buying an expensive camera from Pollock's would have been an event well worth being reminded of (and I know that willeica's camera has gone to someone who still appreciates its provenance.

As an aside, I do like 'backstories' about cameras and lenses but they are hard to find and often require a lot of research.

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If anyone is interested (or maybe does not know and will be happy for this information), there is a whole section (8 pages) on engravings in my copy of Lager's LEICA AN ILLUSTRATED HISTORY III - ACCESSORIES starting on page 311. Cameras, lenses and accessories are featured. The plaque I shared in post #11 can be found there as well.

Edited by Al Brown
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2 hours ago, nitroplait said:

I agree.

However, the time when the engravings shown in this thread where done, the engravings were contemporary - and yet the customers at that time presumably didn't mind that their cameras were "defaced" with dealer information.

I suspect the customers at the time felt differently from what I would feel today if a dealer engraved my new camera with their logo/address.

The elaborate Pollock engraving must have come with a not insignificant additional cost for the dealer and I assume it was done because the customer would appreciate it, rather than the opposite.

As I mentioned before, the people at Weirs Jewellers further down the street told me that back in the 1930s engraving was almost expected. There must have been an awful lot of engraving going on to keep 50 engravers employed. I don't think that you can compare the cultural norms and expectations of B&H customers in the 21st Century with those of wealthy customers in Dublin in the 1920s and 1930s. My wife worked for a women's fashion store in Grafton Street in the 1960s when a lot of the 'old money' was still around and everything was sold 'on account'. She has memories of bringing out a dress that was too small to a large posh lady who told her " Don't you know that 'County People' are very tall?". I hope that translates for people not from these islands, but British and Irish people will recognise that. That era has long since gone. 

The Pollock engraving can be found on page 39 of Dennis Laney's Leica Collector's Guide. Jim Lager loved the engraving when I showed it to him.

William

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16 minutes ago, willeica said:

As I mentioned before, the people at Weirs Jewellers further down the street told me that back in the 1930s engraving was almost expected. There must have been an awful lot of engraving going on to keep 50 engravers employed. I don't think that you can compare the cultural norms and expectations of B&H customers in the 21st Century with those of wealthy customers in Dublin in the 1920s and 1930s. My wife worked for a women's fashion store in Grafton Street in the 1960s when a lot of the 'old money' was still around and everything was sold 'on account'. She has memories of bringing out a dress that was too small to a large posh lady who told her " Don't you know that 'County People' are very tall?". I hope that translates for people not from these islands, but British and Irish people will recognise that. That era has long since gone. 

The Pollock engraving can be found on page 39 of Dennis Laney's Leica Collector's Guide. Jim Lager loved the engraving when I showed it to him.

William

Indeed, those days are long gone in Dublin.

My grandmother worked as a seamstress in Switzers in the 1920s.

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3 hours ago, Viv said:

Indeed, those days are long gone in Dublin.

My grandmother worked as a seamstress in Switzers in the 1920s.

My wife worked in shop called Slynes, long since gone. About 1990, the Al Fayeds, who once owned Harrods, sold Switzers to Brown Thomas, who moved across the street and into the Switzers premises to allow Marks and Spencer to move into the former Brown Thomas store. Grafton Street is now pedestrianised and, to be brutally honest, is not a patch on its former splendour. The Pollock address was, appropriately enough, occupied by a store called Urban Decay in 2019 when I photographed it with the camera which had been sold at that address 87 years earlier, i.e. the one shown in my post above.

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Father Francis Browne SJ, the Irish Jesuit priest who took photographs on the Titanic, was awarded a lifetime supply of Kodak film for the use of his photographs after the ship went down. On instructions from his Jesuit superiors, Father Browne had left the ship in Cobh (Queenstown) before it left for its final fateful journey. Needless to say, the Kodak shop in Grafton Street became a favourite haunt of Father Browne any time that he was in Dublin. This photo, taken by Father Browne from inside the Kodak shop, probably in the early 1930s,  really captures the time and location when and where my camera was sold.

 

 

William 

 

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

This is one of my favorites in my collection. It is a Model I, #36621. It has an inset brass medallion from Foto Riegler of Munich.

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Close up of the medallion

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