Getting Back into B&W Developing\.

[DoubleE]

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I'm just getting back into B&W film developing (and shooting film) after about a 20 year hiatus. So recently I bought some Tri-X along with some new chemistry, dug out my old changing bag, tanks and reels and got the Massive Dev app for my phone.  My favorite developer used to be Rodinal, so I got a bottle of Adox Rodinal to get started. I processed two rolls and I think it went pretty well, although I felt the negatives had a bit too much contrast for my taste.  Also, I was also surprised at how grainy my scans were.  I used a 1:50 dilution, processed for 13 minutes at 20 C. I think... I may have been a little too zealous with the agitation, that's my guess, but I would welcome any suggestions as to technique or perhaps a recommendation for a different developer .  I dialed the contrast as far back as possible in Lightroom for the scans below.  I'm pretty happy with them, but I think I'd the highlights slightly less blown out, and the blacks a little more open. I'm just not sure how to get there. 

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Edited July 3, 2022 by DoubleE

[DoubleE]

This photo shows where the highlights got away from me.

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[105012]

The highlights will be there in the negative, they were likely lost in the digitisation (scanning) phase. Re-scan, but with different exposure/contrast in the scan.

Rodinal does have a reputation for high acceptance (which will emphasise grain), a solvent developer like Ilfotec HC or Kodak HC-110 might be worth trying. Also, scanning often emphasises grain much more than would be visible through a diffusion enlarger.

[Aryel]

I agree with @105012, you should check the second negative to see if the shirt has more details and if so review your scanning pipeline.

For rodinal, I tend to do 2 very gentle inversions instead of the recommended 4. If the highlight are blown in the negative, you can consider to cut the development time or increase the dilution (this could be preferable as I believe it reduces the grain as well but I did not try yet). 

I really like the first shot, congrats on getting this straight away after a long break. 

[250swb]

Let's not blame the developer too quickly, it could be a metering problem, although all that has been said about Rodinal can be true. If you are just getting back into film you need to get your eye in, know what the film likes, know how the developer responds, know how it will look scanned. If you are using a dedicated film scanner it will add digital noise and this can add to the natural grain of the negative. If you are using a camera for scanning it won't add digital noise (unless you are using absurd ISO values). I think the idea from @105012for using HC-110 is good, dilution B should give a datum point right down the middle of how Tri-X should look, neither too grainy or too contrasty, but depending on exposure of course. 

[DoubleE]

I'm using a Nikon Coolscan iv with Vuescan software (camera was an M3, freshly CLA’d).  I'll try rescanning with different settings.  I've been considering switching to using my digital camera for scanning. It seems so much faster and more efficient from what I’ve read.  I just need a negative holder.

Looking over old negatives that I’m pretty sure I did with Rodinal, I very much prefer the results I got back then.  I think I was much more gentle with the agitation, that’s my guess.  But I also really like the qualities I found on negatives I had commercially processed, which which were probably done with a solvent type developer.  Trying HC110 or Ilfotec HC seems like a good suggestion.  For my first two rolls of film after so long, I guess I did ok. 

I’m definitely out of practice using a hand held light meter, although the rolls look pretty consistent frame to frame, which would seem to indicate it’s more of a development issue.  Anyway it’s exciting to get back into film, I can’t believe I dropped it so completely for so long.   

 

 

[madNbad]

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The new HC-110 is less of a syrup than the old formula, so be aware of that change. I have a bottle of Ilfotec HC but haven't used it very often but found the results to be much like HC-110. A lot of returning to home developing after a hiatus is practice. If your scanner is still working and producing good results, stick with it. I scan my negatives with a digital camera but there are a lot of variables in obtaining good results, mostly keeping the negative flat and the camera aligned. Also, if you have a bottle of Adox Rodinal, experiment with some different dilutions to see if you like the results that change brings. Don't try to make too many changes at once and most of all, have fun with it.

[Ornello]

Scanning is not the best way to go. Use an enlarger. Scanning tends to exaggerate grain.  Rodinal tends to exaggerate grain too. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Ornello

[ymc226]

I am also getting back into film due to my daughter enrolling in art school earlier this year. Having just bought film for the first time in 12 years and placed an order from B&H for Ilford's readily available products (Ilotec DD-X as developer) I am feeling very excited as I did when I first started photography.  I will start with Tr-X and next HP5+.  In the past, I used HC110 and Agfa Rodinal before the formula changes.  In regards to grain, my wish is to have accentuated grain as my digital Monochroms (M9, M10) already have the grainless quality down pat.  No more wet darkroom so cannot print but will scan by camera and print via inkjet.  Color film was also purchased but will be developed by a lab.

What plug in software are people using for handling of the scanned files?  My main processing software is Lightroom Classic and several sites made me aware of Negative Lab Pro.  It seems there are several adjustments that can be made in terms of emulating the processor type (Noritsu, Frontier etc) and tones prior to converting to a positive for LRC adjustments.  The recommendation from Negative Supply is to use Film Lab App which more or less just changes the negative to a positive that can be tweaked in LRC conventionally. 

[otto.f]

On 7/3/2022 at 3:43 AM, DoubleE said:

how grainy my scans

Is quite normal with Rodinal 1:50, no? I would not use Rodinal for 135mm film and high contrast is also a Rodinal thing, although if you go up 1:100 it becomes milder. I am very happy with Adox’s FX39ii, the ii standing for longer shelf life. I buy the 500ml bottle and use it in 18month. Very sharp and good manageable contrast by varying times. 

[Aryel]

15 hours ago, ymc226 said:

I am also getting back into film due to my daughter enrolling in art school earlier this year. Having just bought film for the first time in 12 years and placed an order from B&H for Ilford's readily available products (Ilotec DD-X as developer) I am feeling very excited as I did when I first started photography.  I will start with Tr-X and next HP5+.  In the past, I used HC110 and Agfa Rodinal before the formula changes.  In regards to grain, my wish is to have accentuated grain as my digital Monochroms (M9, M10) already have the grainless quality down pat.  No more wet darkroom so cannot print but will scan by camera and print via inkjet.  Color film was also purchased but will be developed by a lab.

What plug in software are people using for handling of the scanned files?  My main processing software is Lightroom Classic and several sites made me aware of Negative Lab Pro.  It seems there are several adjustments that can be made in terms of emulating the processor type (Noritsu, Frontier etc) and tones prior to converting to a positive for LRC adjustments.  The recommendation from Negative Supply is to use Film Lab App which more or less just changes the negative to a positive that can be tweaked in LRC conventionally. 

For black and white, I just use photoshop without plugin: invert, a layer to adjust the levels and then some contrast adjustments... For colours, I was using colour perfect (a photoshop plugin) before. As a side note, I like DD-X a lot, especially for high speed film. Have fun!

[DoubleE]

Thanks everyone for all the replies.  Back when I was printing my negatives I was very happy with the results from Rodinal 1:50.  I no longer have a home darkroom so I'm restricted to scanning for the present.   I'm learning that scanning does seem to bring out the grain and also every imperfection in the negative, especially since I'm viewing the work on a 27" screen.  

YMC226, my son took a film photography course at college last spring, that's what inspired me to pick up my Leica again.  I use the subscription version of Lightroom, but since I'm using a scanner (Nikon CoolScan V) I can work with positive images, although it's easy to invert an image in LR. 

[LocalHero1953]

22 hours ago, ymc226 said:

I am also getting back into film due to my daughter enrolling in art school earlier this year. Having just bought film for the first time in 12 years and placed an order from B&H for Ilford's readily available products (Ilotec DD-X as developer) I am feeling very excited as I did when I first started photography.  I will start with Tr-X and next HP5+.  In the past, I used HC110 and Agfa Rodinal before the formula changes.  In regards to grain, my wish is to have accentuated grain as my digital Monochroms (M9, M10) already have the grainless quality down pat.  No more wet darkroom so cannot print but will scan by camera and print via inkjet.  Color film was also purchased but will be developed by a lab.

What plug in software are people using for handling of the scanned files?  My main processing software is Lightroom Classic and several sites made me aware of Negative Lab Pro.  It seems there are several adjustments that can be made in terms of emulating the processor type (Noritsu, Frontier etc) and tones prior to converting to a positive for LRC adjustments.  The recommendation from Negative Supply is to use Film Lab App which more or less just changes the negative to a positive that can be tweaked in LRC conventionally. 

I tried Negative Lab Pro to start with, but now prefer to do my own inversion and colour balancing. I like to know what's going on, and NLP is a bit of a black box. I started with the guidance by Alex Burke, translating his Photoshop workflow to Lightroom (his workflow is essentially invert>white balance adjust>RGB colour channel adjust). My initial scans were of 4x5 negatives, where I was happy to spend time on a small number of images. I am now shooting more 35mm as well, and I find each image requires its own attention: a blanket preset, or adjustment copy-and-past does not work except with a series of similar shots. I need to return to NLP to see if that saves time by reducing the number of images in a 36 frame roll requiring individual attention. I doubt it - I usually want to adjust individual images in a fully digital workflow as well, but YMMV. 

[hansvons]

I scan my negs with my digital Leica and do all else manually in C1, including inverting, the actual grading, dodge and burn etc. Like @LocalHero1953 I like to know what’s going on and don’t use dedicated scanning software. 

I find it essential to get the grain as sharp as possible, as that pays into the overall sharpness (as does the original camera’s lens and focus). For that, I must double-check the digital camera’s focus, use the electronic shutter, close the macro lens to f 8, and, finally, add some digital sharpness with great delicacy. 
 

But equally important is the acutance of the negative for me. How that looks depends on the film stock and the developer. And I also like as much resolution as possible. With 35mm not an easy task, especially in B&W. On my journey, I defaulted to Delta 100/400 and XTOL, as the grain is fine but sharp and the resolution relatively high, in the region of 3K. 

Also, XTOL keeps the highlights safe with the Delta films and develops the mids and shadows close to box speed (I rate Delta 400 at 320 ISO and tend to expose fat). But the contrast is relatively flat and needs some grading. 

All of that is very personal and depends on the subject and genre. I shoot mostly portraits and reportages. Thus, skin tones are essential. Delta 400 renders skin tones a tad brighter than other film stocks and is particularly gentle to skin blemishes. 

In the end, it's all about your personal journey, your preferences, how you feel comfortable with your workflow. The audience has no idea about all these thoughts because the alternative is unknown, and the expertise is usually not high regarding photographic technicalities. 

Hence, I have no second thoughts on optimisation at the expense of accessibility, ease of use, and time. That's why I never tried scanning with scanners.

[250swb]

On 12/26/2022 at 8:46 PM, DoubleE said:

 I'm learning that scanning does seem to bring out the grain and also every imperfection in the negative, especially since I'm viewing the work on a 27" screen.  

 

That's because the scanner introduces a level of digital noise which looks like grain, basically bogus information to fill in the gaps caused by relatively low resolution. A 'better way' if you can afford it is to use a high resolution digital camera and macro lens to 'scan' or copy your negatives. You can enjoy different films and developer combinations and see the true grain. It is however another learning curve but not nearly as arduous as understanding and getting the best from dedicated scanners.

Edited December 30, 2022 by 250swb

[DoubleE]

250swb, I've been thinking of trying to scan negatives with a digital camera.  I have most of what I need if my macro lens will suffice: it's a "Micro Nikkor" 55mm f3.5, I think from the 1960s.  If that lens works I just need to get a negative holder.  My iPad or light table will probably work for a light source. Your scans, by the way, are the nicest I've seen and the photos are beautiful.

Edited December 30, 2022 by DoubleE

[250swb]

On 12/30/2022 at 5:47 PM, DoubleE said:

250swb, I've been thinking of trying to scan negatives with a digital camera.  I have most of what I need if my macro lens will suffice: it's a "Micro Nikkor" 55mm f3.5, I think from the 1960s.  If that lens works I just need to get a negative holder.  My iPad or light table will probably work for a light source. Your scans, by the way, are the nicest I've seen and the photos are beautiful.

Although old the 55mm Nikkor is a stalwart and a great lens for copying, especially stopped down. I use a 60mm 2.8D so the focal length is similar enough and I can scan 6x12 negatives on a modestly high copy stand. So if you have the camera you'll need a copy stand, and it doesn't need to be fancy if there are no vibrations, a tripod with a boom arm is fine although it takes up space. And you need a light source. I think you could get by with an iPad but better is a Kaiser Slimlite Plano 2453. You can make a film holder from anything that isn't going to warp but virtually any film holder from an old flatbed scanner can be used with or without modification. A hole cut into foam core exhibition board is fine if you use a small sheet of ANR glass on top to hold the negative flat. Of course you can buy dedicated film holders for camera scanning but some are expensive. To speed workflow and accuracy Negative Lab Pro is good if you use Lightroom, I use Photoshop so use the old school style ColorPerfect for both colour and B&W conversion, it's cheaper and does the basic job you ask of it very well. Thank you very much for your comments about my photographs. Remember all you want from a scan is the basic image with no peaks at either end of the histogram, make it beautiful later in post process editing.

Edited January 1, 2023 by 250swb

[DoubleE]

I finally got all the parts together for digital camera scanning.  I hope my Sony camera is high res enough, it's an A7SIII and the sensor is only 12 megapixels.  So far the results have been ok, but hopefully I can do better.  So far I've been just inverting the curves in Lightroom, going to try Negative Lap Pro next. 

 

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[250swb]

Negative Lab Pro should be much, much better and less laborious than inverting the curves. But it looks like a good setup to build on. I looked the specs up and it appears your A7Siii can't do pixel shift capture which is a shame because your 12mp would have become more like 48mp. However with 12mp you'll at least be getting clean images with no digital noise and good enough for 35mm. 

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