Shutter lag comments from Jesko von Oeynhausen

[mrmalo]

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On 5/19/2023 at 6:32 PM, lct said:

Same on my M11 but i can take about 12 shots successively outdoors at wide apertures. Less so in the dark or at small apertures though. 13 shots here:

 

 

Appreciate the audio! It's hard to explain. When I'm at home testing how many shots I can take in a row using single shot mode, my camera sounds/works exactly like yours. However, when I'm actually making pictures with the camera on the street (which I consider a real world scenario for me) - the shutter can occasionally not fire, which equates to missed shots. Like I say, this happens occasionally. 

For reference, my key settings are:

• Manual shutter speed/iso / medium aperture (around f8)
• Auto preview off
• Multi-field metering 
• Noise reduction off
• Exposure preview > permanent 
• Connectivity > airplane mode
• Shutter > mechanical 

@FlashGordonPhotography Thanks - I'll give this a go. Is this work around still relevant though and not related to an old bug?

Edited May 23, 2023 by mrmalo

[FlashGordonPhotography]

4 hours ago, mrmalo said:

Appreciate the audio! It's hard to explain. When I'm at home testing how many shots I can take in a row using single shot mode, my camera sounds/works exactly like yours. However, when I'm actually making pictures with the camera on the street (which I consider a real world scenario for me) - the shutter can occasionally not fire, which equates to missed shots. Like I say, this happens occasionally. 

For reference, my key settings are:

• Manual shutter speed/iso / medium aperture (around f8)
• Auto preview off
• Multi-field metering 
• Noise reduction off
• Exposure preview > permanent 
• Connectivity > airplane mode
• Shutter > mechanical 

@FlashGordonPhotography Thanks - I'll give this a go. Is this work around still relevant though and not related to an old bug?

Unsure if this has a Leica claimed fix or not. But I still have it a applied and haven't had issues since I did. I suppose I should turn it off and see what happens but I don't want to jinx myself or my camera...

Gordon

[PaulJohn]

Definitely a bug. I experienced delays of up to 1 sec so I tried switching from Auto ISO and Auto shutter speed to manual ISO and SS. It went away. But when I switched back to Auto ISO and SS I could not recreate the issue. I had review set to 5 secs. As this is a serious issue, I expect this will be fixed in an upcoming firmware update.

[monoxy]

Hey all, Im an m2 user, planning a purchase of m11-p and was researching the shutter lag status of the m11 bodies. Just read this thread and checked reddots review. So far as I understand the lag difference is miniscule compared with an m10, which is cool.

I wonder about the last posts where some users mention of the body not firing shot after shot without a noticable delay. Is this still the case?

Cheers!

[lct]

No significant difference compared to my post below.

 

[kiwidad]

On 7/2/2022 at 3:36 PM, 105012 said:

50 to 125ms! That’s up to an eight of a second! My M3’s will best this M11 every time. Immediate response, no need for half presses, das wesentliche.

factor in the human reaction and its really moot for me! 

Maybe Leica need "preshot" like fuji and Olympus have on the M11? 

I never really have been concerned with this since I never really considered the M camera to be action cameras, having said that its even much worse with a visoflex attached!

[kiwidad]

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On 5/18/2023 at 10:17 PM, Duderino Johnson said:

It’s interesting, I’ve been reading through a bunch of comments on the various threads containing this shutter lag issue on the M11 and it seems like folks are having a hard time understanding each other. There are a few different issues at play apparently. Here’s what I experience with my brand new M11 Monochrom. 

In single shot mode:

I press the shutter and the camera takes a picture. I don’t experience any delay in response to pressing the shutter thank god. 

But wait…

I try and press the shutter again to take a photo rapidly after the first shot. Ah yes… a 2nd shot. 

What happens then you ask?? 

The camera can’t respond  as quickly as I would like it to by taking another shot. If I press the shutter twice within a short period the 2nd photo will not be taken at the moment I press the shutter but fire as soon as the camera can get it together to do so which seems like an eternity. It is in point of fact the exact opposite of the decisive moment. Sort of feels like the camera is drunk. 

Now what’s really odd is that in fast continuous mode the shutter fires much faster with much less delay between shots. It truly makes no sense and if it can’t be fixed by a firmware update or changing a setting it’s a monumental flaw in the design of the camera. It’s in the category of things that are “Riddiculous” . It borders on being criminal. 

I have noticed this behavior and it occurs in all drive modes. If you take a picture or sequence and release the shutter there is a delay before I can shoot again. It's almost like it was to clear a buffer with the current "job" before accepting new input. I don't recall if I was shooting A or M tho so I may have to test that theory.

[Derbyshire Man]

35 minutes ago, kiwidad said:

I have noticed this behavior and it occurs in all drive modes. If you take a picture or sequence and release the shutter there is a delay before I can shoot again. It's almost like it was to clear a buffer with the current "job" before accepting new input. I don't recall if I was shooting A or M tho so I may have to test that theory.

Yep, this is something I have complained bitterly about and is definitely not good enough. We know that the camera is capable of 4.5 per second. If you mash the shutter on my Fuji x100 etc it can take 4-5 photos per second, same for my Canon 5d, yet in single shot mode it's less than two photo's per second, in fact, just over 1 per second. This is what is commonly known as rubbish. Obviously not for landscape but for portraits, candids, street it's an eternity. Yes I know there are some amazing photographers turning out incredible work but for something which seeks to do the essentials to perfection it doesn't fit the brand tagline at all.

The most annoying situation is when you think you've taken multiple photos (on e-shutter) and actually you've taken one, same can happen on standard shutter and there's no click but often you don't notice.

I strongly suspect it simply comes back to firmware which needs starting from scratch, it's probably only polling the shutter irregularly so as to be able to handle the other functions. Why other cameras costing 1/6th of the price can manage it I don't know. I wrote to Leica and moaned and essentially got back platitudes.

[lct]

16 minutes ago, Derbyshire Man said:

[...] in single shot mode it's less than two photo's per second, in fact, just over 1 per second. This is what is commonly known as rubbish [...]

Why shooting in single shot mode if you need more speed? Do you have anything against continous? Just curious.

 

[Derbyshire Man]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Why shooting in single shot mode if you need more speed? Do you have anything against continous? Just curious.

 

The same reason that the shutter doesn't respond to a second or third press (ie far too low frequency of polling for a shutter press) means it also doesn't check for a shutter release, so >50% of the time removing ones finger before a second shot on 4.5 fps will result in 4 photo's rather than one, which is about 95% as annoying as being unable to take more than one shot every 0.8s.

I have just accepted it but that doesn't mean it's right. It's hard not to come to the conclusion that the whole code base plus/minus processor needs a rewrite/replacement something doesn't seem up to the job.

[lct]

How many shots did you take per second in the film days? I used to use Nikon and Canon SLRs when i needed speed then. My M3 and M4 did not try to compete more so than the M11 compared to my current Sony. YMMV.

[Corius]

2 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said:

..... yet in single shot mode it's less than two photo's per second, in fact, just over 1 per second. This is what is commonly known as rubbish. .....

I think your camera or finger must be faulty. I'm easily getting 2 per second without any hesitation. I wouldn't want any faster in single shot in case I wore my finger out.

Likewise, in continuous mode I can easily take 1, 2, 3, 4  or more photos, depending on how long I leave my finger depressed

[Derbyshire Man]

39 minutes ago, Corius said:

I think your camera or finger must be faulty. I'm easily getting 2 per second without any hesitation. I wouldn't want any faster in single shot in case I wore my finger out.

Likewise, in continuous mode I can easily take 1, 2, 3, 4  or more photos, depending on how long I leave my finger depressed

That's odd as there's definitely nothing wrong with my fingers and all 3 M bodies are as rubbish as each other at it. 2 per second is I'm afraid bobbins, both the Fujis and Canon can manage 5+ easily. 

It's actually very useful to be able to take a repeat second shot on a portrait a split second later as looks change fleetingly. 2 per second isn't it.

I realise it can be done, I do it but in 2024 I don't think we need to be making excuses for an £8,100 camera!

[Derbyshire Man]

52 minutes ago, lct said:

How many shots did you take per second in the film days? I used to use Nikon and Canon SLRs when i needed speed then. My M3 and M4 did not try to compete more so than the M11 compared to my current Sony. YMMV.

I don't want to disconcert you too much @lct but you do realise the M11M/D/P isn't actually a film camera? My T90 and Canon 1V were 4.5 and 6 shots per second respectively (along with autofocus in the latter), the T90 was released in 1986! It's now 38 years later and the M11 is less responsive and capable in the shutter department. There are only a handful of 'essentials'; shutter speed, iso, aperture, focus and... shutter. Ignoring this last is poor form and should be made better.

If I'd have wanted a camera which can only take shots at the speed of rewind I'd have bought a manual film camera from before 1986 as my T90 and 1V still work. The point of digital is there are supposed to be some advantages, one of which is rewind isn't needed and shots can be taken more rapidly. Indeed, we know the camera can take shots at 4.5 per second. The latency between presses (or noticing the pressing has stopped) isn't right, other cameras have this right and so could Leica. The fact it doesn't matter to some of us doesn't make that any different.

[lct]

I see that your mind is made so i won't bother you any longer. Fact is my M240 is more responsive in single shot and RF modes but continuous is way faster on the M11 and i won't compare the sluggish LV mode of the M240. I have set up a user profile for continuous mode on my M11. Works fine for me as is but i won't complain if the M12 is even faster.

[kiwidad]

6 hours ago, lct said:

Why shooting in single shot mode if you need more speed? Do you have anything against continous? Just curious.

 

The problem is even in continuous mode after you release the shutter there is a delay before you can start shooting again.

I haven’t check since a few recent firmwares to see if its “A: dependent or not tho.. time to play

 

[lct]

2 minutes ago, kiwidad said:

The problem is even in continuous mode after you release the shutter there is a delay before you can start shooting again [...]

Do you mean when the buffer is full?

[kiwidad]

6 minutes ago, lct said:

Do you mean when the buffer is full?

No, but its acts like it. If i shot 5 frames in low speed and stop I have a delay before I can start shooting again… same length of delay as the single frame delay.

well I just got the girl out and its significantly improved. I can get an about 2 FPS in single mode with no delay but faster is hit or miss. I slow or fast if I shoot and stop and resume there is a slight delay of about a frame in 1 in 5 times. A big improvement or I am old and forgot how bad it wasn’t.

[lct]

I don't know but i suppose a delay is normal as long as the red light is flashing

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[Derbyshire Man]

4 hours ago, kiwidad said:

No, but its acts like it. If i shot 5 frames in low speed and stop I have a delay before I can start shooting again… same length of delay as the single frame delay.

well I just got the girl out and its significantly improved. I can get an about 2 FPS in single mode with no delay but faster is hit or miss. I slow or fast if I shoot and stop and resume there is a slight delay of about a frame in 1 in 5 times. A big improvement or I am old and forgot how bad it wasn’t.

Don’t get me wrong, there’s no element of me regretting purchasing the M11s, I love them to bits and as a package are by far my favourite camera to use in general and for nearly everything but this could and should be better.