SrMi Posted July 22, 2022 Author Share #81 Posted July 22, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 3 hours ago, John Ricard said: Has anyone measured shutter lag at high ISO? The M cameras are the only cameras that I know of whose performance slows down dramatically when you raise the ISO. This is new to me. Do you have any pointers to measurements that show increased shutter lag with higher ISOs? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 22, 2022 Posted July 22, 2022 Hi SrMi, Take a look here Shutter lag comments from Jesko von Oeynhausen. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
otto.f Posted July 22, 2022 Share #82 Posted July 22, 2022 (edited) I have a question for M11 owners, especially those who see the shutter lag issue a minor point because they do not experience any problems with it compared to how they worked with any former M's back to M3. This week I shot two photo's with my M10-R in Colmar, France and I wonder whether M11 owners can show me some examples whether something similar can be done with the M11. I'm aware that shooting with LV or with EVF on the M10-R gives a significant lag, which systematically produces photo's afte the decisive moment. I made these two with the OVF and had no problem at al with hitting the decisive moment, especially the first one where I wanted to be the piece of bread seen in flight indeed. This was a single shot and I made only one of this scene with this purpose. The second scene was of a man who was talking very much with his arms and hands and I made two of this scene, but I chose this one not because of missing the decisive moment in the other one, but because in this one she was reflecting his gesture, which gives a stronger meaning to the image. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited July 22, 2022 by otto.f Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/334121-shutter-lag-comments-from-jesko-von-oeynhausen/?do=findComment&comment=4475252'>More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted July 22, 2022 Share #83 Posted July 22, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, otto.f said: I have a question for M11 owners, especially those who see the shutter lag issue a minor point because they do not experience any problems with it compared to how they worked with any former M's back to M3. This week I shot two photo's with my M10-R in Colmar, France and I wonder whether M11 owners can show me some examples whether something similar can be done with the M11. I'm aware that shooting with LV or with EVF on the M10-R gives a significant lag, which systematically produces photo's afte the decisive moment. I made these two with the OVF and had no problem at al with hitting the decisive moment, especially the first one where I wanted to be the piece of bread seen in flight indeed. This was a single shot and I made only one of this scene with this purpose. The second scene was of a man who was talking very much with his arms and hands and I made two of this scene, but I chose this one not because of missing the decisive moment in the other one, but because in this one she was reflecting his gesture, which gives a stronger meaning to the image. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! If M11 users were having trouble capturing decisive moments, you'd hear about it. Capturing a perfect moment can be accidental, so showing a photo example won't prove anything, IMO. All digital mirrorless have some lag, so capturing the moment is about knowing your system and anticipating the shot. Edited July 22, 2022 by hdmesa Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 23, 2022 Share #84 Posted July 23, 2022 The duration of the M11's shutter actuation (320ms) is too long for me and i don't sense the moment when the photo is taken within the "stapler sound" so i have the feeling i must anticipate for a longer time than with my other cameras. Just a feeling perhaps i don't know but i keep using my M240 for shooting people in RF mode for now. Leica will do something to shorten the M11's shutter actuation hopefully. 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted July 23, 2022 Author Share #85 Posted July 23, 2022 20 minutes ago, lct said: The duration of the M11's shutter actuation (320ms) is too long for me and i don't sense the moment when the photo is taken within the "stapler sound" so i have the feeling i must anticipate for a longer time than with my other cameras. Just a feeling perhaps i don't know but i keep using my M240 for shooting people in RF mode for now. Leica will do something to shorten the M11's shutter actuation hopefully. What is shutter actuation time? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPaulK Posted July 23, 2022 Share #86 Posted July 23, 2022 M11 is definitely not taking 1/3s to fire the shutter. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 23, 2022 Share #87 Posted July 23, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) Time to go to bed here so i will show this tomorrow if you wish folks but we have discussed about this already on the LUF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPaulK Posted July 23, 2022 Share #88 Posted July 23, 2022 Everyone has their own process, and I respect that. If you feel the sound doesn't reflect your desires, then I suspect it isn't suited to you. But I would suggest that from my evidence the M11 is pretty consistent on firing time, and if you get used to it, you may come to trust that it fired as you expected. But if you can't trust the camera, then it isn't for you, for sure. Possibly a camera with a shorter sound will work better for you, and give the require confidence that the shot came out as you expected it to. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPaulK Posted July 23, 2022 Share #89 Posted July 23, 2022 I will say if you've used leaf shutters much, all these cameras sound very slow. Personally I don't listen to the shutter, but that really is just me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted July 23, 2022 Author Share #90 Posted July 23, 2022 25 minutes ago, lct said: Time to go to bed here so i will show this tomorrow if you wish folks but we have discussed about this already on the LUF. Shutter actuation is the number of times the shutter has been triggered. You probably refer to the time from the first to the last sound of the shutter mechanism. Nobody measures those times as they are typically unimportant. However, using iPhone's VoiceMail app, I observe the total time the M11 shutter makes a sound about 80ms longer than in M10M (very ad hoc measurement). It seems to bother mostly those who do not own the camera :). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted July 23, 2022 Share #91 Posted July 23, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, SrMi said: Shutter actuation is the number of times the shutter has been triggered. You probably refer to the time from the first to the last sound of the shutter mechanism. Nobody measures those times as they are typically unimportant. However, using iPhone's VoiceMail app, I observe the total time the M11 shutter makes a sound about 80ms longer than in M10M (very ad hoc measurement). It seems to bother mostly those who do not own the camera :). It bothers me. The M11 shutter is taking longer to reopen after a shot in single shot mode than it should. We documented this earlier in this thread, and I submitted the findings to Leica. The point @lct is making is about the psychology of the shutter sound and how that aligns with the moment of capture. The shutter sound is long enough that it can be easy to lose sight of which part of the shutter sound you need to anticipate when trying to capture an exact moment. @lct – you have to unlearn the mindset that the exposure is not happening immediately when you press the shutter. You can't listen to the shutter sounds like you would on a film M and hear the exact moment of capture, or at least I can't seem to. Edited July 23, 2022 by hdmesa 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 23, 2022 Share #92 Posted July 23, 2022 Same feeling as ABS braking sort of. You brake but you have the feeling the car does nothing but emitting curious vibrations. Here i shoot but i have the feeling the camera does nothing but emitting a (not less curious) stapler sound. Then i feel the need to shoot again to catch the decisive moment. Frustrating. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted July 23, 2022 Share #93 Posted July 23, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, SrMi said: It seems to bother mostly those who do not own the camera :). Which includes all those who chose not to buy a M11 for this reason - a point worth noting by Leica if they wish to maintain or expand their market. Just two comments, both of which I have made before, but this is an internet forum, so repetition is allowed 🙂. My quick tests of the M11 in the showroom (panning across a scene and shooting at a specific point) demonstrated that there is no shutter lag after pressing the button that would affect my capture of the right moment i.e. annoying though I found the sound, the moment of capture appears to be at the start of the noise. 'Shutter lag' in a camera with an EVF includes two components: the lag of the EVF display behind the action, and the lag of the shutter from moment of pressing the button. The former can be considerable and can increase a lot as light levels drop. I hardly used the EVF on the M240 for this reason. I don't know what the lag is on the M11 Viso, but I'd be (pleasantly) surprised to hear that it is negligible. Edited July 23, 2022 by LocalHero1953 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.f Posted July 23, 2022 Share #94 Posted July 23, 2022 10 hours ago, hdmesa said: anticipating the shot. That's not enough, for instance in my second example where the man raises suddenly his arm and the woman responds to that with the same. There is no time for anticipation. 10 hours ago, hdmesa said: Capturing a perfect moment can be accidental, so showing a photo example won't prove anything, IMO. We're not in a courtroom here, come on! What are we here for if members cannot trust each other in sharing experiences. If it's accidental, then the example is irrelevant to post here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 23, 2022 Share #95 Posted July 23, 2022 2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said: I hardly used the EVF on the M240 for this reason. I don't know what the lag is on the M11 Viso, but I'd be (pleasantly) surprised to hear that it is negligible. Negligible is subjective but for me at least it is not significant enough to be annoying. I use it more or less the same way as the EVF of my digital CL. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.f Posted July 23, 2022 Share #96 Posted July 23, 2022 On 7/4/2022 at 8:54 PM, Olaf_ZG said: Totally off-topic, but I am sincerely interested: when canisofu brings out a new cam, do they have similar discussions? This is not off-topic but yes they will, if: - a new and different technology is introduced which is quite different from the tradition in the camera line of a certain type - if people experience it in practice Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 23, 2022 Share #97 Posted July 23, 2022 9 hours ago, MrPaulK said: M11 is definitely not taking 1/3s to fire the shutter. I measured 320ms: LeicaM11_shutt_sing.mp3 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/334121-shutter-lag-comments-from-jesko-von-oeynhausen/?do=findComment&comment=4475645'>More sharing options...
SrMi Posted July 23, 2022 Author Share #98 Posted July 23, 2022 12 minutes ago, lct said: I measured 320ms: LeicaM11_shutt_sing.mp3 8.66 kB · 20 downloads Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! The time to fire the shutter is what is commonly referred to as shutter lag. You are measuring something else. Could you measure it for M10? What shutter speed was used in the measurements? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPaulK Posted July 23, 2022 Share #99 Posted July 23, 2022 Yes, precisely. The image was taken long before 320ms. Part of the problem is that there are two conversations here; one is about lag, which is button press -> image taken, and one is about total shutter cycle time and the sound it makes. I suspect the latter discussion is much more concern to people who used previous Leica cameras and have an expectation on how it will sound and operate (I am not one of those people, though have used rangefinders previously, they were different enough that I didn't bring their expectations to the M11, and also just aren't one of those people who listen to the shutter.) 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 23, 2022 Share #100 Posted July 23, 2022 1 hour ago, SrMi said: The time to fire the shutter is what is commonly referred to as shutter lag. You are measuring something else. Could you measure it for M10? What shutter speed was used in the measurements? Shutter lag is not my problem. I measured what is of interest for me, i.e. the total duration of the shutter actuation: close, open, close, open. My measures were taken at 1/60s and i always found 320ms. I have no experience with M10 cameras but i seem to recall that i measured 210ms in RF mode on my M240. Was 7 years ago when i beta tested a firmware for the M240 so my memory can fail me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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